Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

[dingbat]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

I don't mean to slam any oif you on this topic. It just needs clarity, and it happens to be a pet peave. Higher peak torque values mean the "ability" to make more power at low RPM, it does not change high RPM operation and it also doesn't matter if you do not hammer the throttles. If I run a 1000 lb/ft. peak torque engine at 1/2 power, I am only generating 500 lb/ft. . . . However with all other things being equal, if I have a 500 lb/ft engine in one boat and a 1000 lb/ft peak torque engine in another and the 500 just can't quite plane, then the 1000 lb/ft one definitely would . . .

Different applications have different needs.

I think you'll find that guys that boat the salt typically use their torque more so than their HP. They spend a lot of time off plane where torque is more important. If you get caught in a storm and have to slug your way through it at displacement speed it's the torque that is going to save your butt, not the HP.

If you fish places like the shoals at the mouth of the Hatteras Inlet or the rips in the mouth of the Delaware Bay it is no replacement for displacement. When you need throttle you need it now and you need lots of it in a hurry.

 

[QC]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

I think you'll find that guys that boat the salt typically use their torque more so than their HP. They spend a lot of time off plane where torque is more important

Again, I don't mean to beat this to death, but that statement is false. Unless you are talking about a commercial fishing trawler or a tugboat or something similar. What these have in common is unusually high loads at very low speeds i.e. pulling something that is not part of the boat.

The fact is that torque is even less important at displacement speeds, there is very little load on the propeller there. Yes, it may "feel" or "sound" like it is working hard, but it just plain isn't. You guys need to look at propeller demand curves . . . Propellers need (require, demand etc.) a certain amount of power (torque x RPM / 5252 = horsePOWER). Low speed spinning requires very little power, so it requires very little torque . . . Try this next time you are hanging at the beach with an I/O. With a small boat and the drive tilted up you can grab the propeller while it is still submerged. Try twisting it (in neutral and off of course) . . . the amazing fact is that you can turn it. How much torque do you think you can produce with one hand using primarily your wrist? It ain't much my friends . . .


I have posted this chart regularly, and in this case ("salt water") it is more valid than usual. It is a Cummins diesel (big torque right?), but you can see the straighter bottom lines in each chart are power, torque and fuel consumption. They are plotted across a propeller "demand" curve. The upper lines are what is available. So look at the second graph, torque, the top line is all of the torque "available" if you hammer the throttle (technically an accelerator, or governor control lever, but that is another discussion). The bottom line is what a propeller requires to turn it. Now how can anyone rationally believe that you "need" all of that available to move the boat at displacement speeds when the propeller requires only the lower line to keep it moving? With that said, let's imagine that you just threw a mega 2 mile long net into the water and you want to maintain 6 knots of displacement speed . . . to keep THAT propeller moving with that mega instantaneously new load on it, yes, you need torque, lots of it. But we do not operate our boats that way! Even a mega swell doesn't add that kinda load. Go ahead, throw in 17 big feather jigs and a sea anchor for good measure, that is not enough load at displacement speeds to even make the engine sweat, let alone need more fuel to create more torque. It's just not required . . .

 

[walleyehed]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

I gotta adda few cents myself here...
First of all, QC is spot-on in my book ...he's been doing this too long and has the numbers to prove what he says..I know, I've been through this same deal with him. I value his opinion greatly and so should the rest of us. His information is for one, priceless..it's beyond what any dealer can provide, and the general boat-owner can't give this info either...don't care how much wheel-time they have, unless they switch engines back and forth, take notes on fuel consumption, consider (as stated) gear ratios that may require different props, etc.
I've been through quite a few Starcrafts myself..own an 18ft superfisherman now, rated for 150max....with a 200 carbed on the jackplate. I have Nauticus Mobsters built for high-speed bassboats with the trolling brackets to lower the tabs to near vertical for trolling...I can run most of the day at 1.5-1.8 gps with this old carbed Rude..lift the tabs and troll at about 2.5-2.7 for stripers/hybrids. As some of you know, I test props for all major manufacturers and I am able to use 17 through 25 pitch props with changes in set-ups.
I too, believe in staying near to top of the recommended HP rating, my rig aside, but I do have one question about this whole deal....How does Starcraft feel about that Verado (and it's weight) hanging off of that extended transom bracket?

 

[Expidia]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

Mods: could you move these last comments over to the "Torque" forum

 

[walleyehed]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

Again, I'll ask the same question...How does Starcraft feel about the weight of the Verado on the transom bracket?

 

[Expidia]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

So I figure a 300 mile round trip from Albany NY to Lake Champlain many weekends, if I can get apprx 18-20 mph (prob less when towing a boat too).

It's going to cost me $50-75 in gas, but I spend most of that just towing my 15 foot Lund with my Saab 9-5.

I'm hoping by going to the 200 hp over the 150 I might see decent fuel efficiency, since the 150 is going to be sucking up more gas just to struggle keep it on plane. Both motors weight the same 510. Trim tabs should save a little more too getting the boat onto plane faster.

Can anyone calculate or from experience with a 200 hp 4 stroke on a 20-24 foot aluminum boat how many mpg I'm going to get if I cruise around on this new boat at probably 3500 rpm's. I figure that's the min rpm's it's going to turn to keep it on plane while I'm cruising.

 

[Expidia]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

Again, I'll ask the same question...How does Starcraft feel about the weight of the Verado on the transom bracket?

They were selling most of the Starcraft 221's as a package with either the 150 Verado 4 stroke or the 150 Optimax 2 stroke as a package.

So I'm sure they have balanced out this setup since they know the motor sits way back on that bracket. Otherwise they would get immediate complaints from new owners as to the boat not being able to jump right up on plane.

The 200 HP 4 cyl is the same 510 lbs as the 150.

Starcraft is privately owned after Brunswick sold them back to an orignal family member and an investor group and their contract to sell Merc's is up now in 2008, so dealers are free to sell a package with any brand outboard.

 

[walleyehed]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

A wild guess on the fuel economy might be in the 3-4mpg area at 20mph

 

[Mike Robinson]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

It's mid Winter here in the Northeast, so I can't just go down a lake and have a dealer allow me to test drive the difference. If I go with a 2008, I'll have to order it by April/March if I want to see it for most of this seasons use.:

My advice is, if at all possible, wait until you can test out the engine/boat you think you would like. (simulating the conditions under which you will be using it) You're talking about spending alot of money and unless you get a sweet deal on a used set up it'll cost you if you change your mind after you have made a purchase.

Take your time, if you get it right the first time it'll save you alot of grief.

 

[walleyehed]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

After going to the Merc site and checking test results and data of the 200 on a 22ft fiberglass at 200lbs heavier hull weight, it looks like it planed-out at about 3000RPM at about 3.1mpg and was at about 3.5mpg just under 4000rpm.
This would be with a smooth hull-no rivets...looks like 3-3.5mpg at 20mph.

 

[Expidia]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

After going to the Merc site and checking test results and data of the 200 on a 22ft fiberglass at 200lbs heavier hull weight, it looks like it planed-out at about 3000RPM at about 3.1mpg and was at about 3.5mpg just under 4000rpm.
This would be with a smooth hull-no rivets...looks like 3-3.5mpg at 20mph.

Thx, I figured it would be in that ball park. I can pretty much cruise around the whole day with my 40 HP Merc 4 stroke now on just a little over 6.5 gals.

So I figured the 200 and an extra 1500 lbs of boat and another 20 inches of beam over my Lund will kick it up another 10-15 gallons of fuel usage. Probably cost me an extra $35 a day in fuel over the Lund. The Starcraft has a 52 gal built in tank which I figure I might get 3 outings on the 52 gal.

A day of trailering the boat to the lake and a day of cruising around is still cheaper than say Skiing!
I figure driving to a ski area that's 150 miles away, plus 150 for two lift tickets and two lunches and a glass of wine each is well over $200 now.
And it's freaking freezing to boot.

A day on the water with the weather at 85 degrees with a fish on the line . . . for around a $100 in fuel for the boat the car for two or more people . . . how can you beat that?

Although, it takes first spending about $45,000 :eeK: for the boat and a used tow vehicle plus insurance and another $50-100 a month to store it somewhere on the trailer when I'm not using it cause at 26 feet with the trailer tongue it won't fit in my backyard . . . only after all that do you get to only have to spend $100 a day to use it . . . what a deal

 

[Expidia]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

My advice is, if at all possible, wait until you can test out the engine/boat you think you would like. (simulating the conditions under which you will be using it) You're talking about spending a lot of money and unless you get a sweet deal on a used set up it'll cost you if you change your mind after you have made a purchase.

Take your time, if you get it right the first time it'll save you a lot of grief.

Test driving is of course, always good advice. In this case since I'm going with the boat's 200 max HP rating I'm pretty much eliminating being disappointed by the test driving of a 150.

The hull design is a proven one since this model has been around for 20 years. Starcraft is in my opinion is of a premium brand just below Lund in build quality.

The Merc brand and this Verado model is the top of the line just below their 6 cylinder line.

Test driving this model mid winter would be tough. Even in the summer this is an odd duck design that to me looks like a Sherman tank with all it's rivets and drab grey paint.

This is not a model that dealers tote around to the boat shows to impress the ladies unless the boat show is featuring amphibious assault vehicles and your lady is into wearing army outfits

It's not the model that the Marina dealers are going to have ideling in their slips for a test drive, one with a 150 hp and one with a 200 hp all warmed up already.

I can't afford to wait till "ice out" in April/May because if I'm forced to order an 08 I won't get a full seasons use if it arrives in July/Aug.

I'm not concerned with it's handling because all the reviews I've read over the years have been positive. And I'm not performance driven.

This will be my 5th boat in 5 years and the 3rd new one past 2 years if I buy an 08.

I should just go with a 60 foot Bertrum Sport Fisherman and say the hell with it.

I look at it this way, if I don't like this Starcraft model and I bought it a good price . . . there is always 2009 to look forward to

If that happens, my Wife will throw me out anyway . . . know of any cheap motels

 

[jddenham]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

My initial thought on the 200HP 4-cyl vs. the 200HP 6-cyl were maintenance costs. I was thinking that with two more cylinders, you would be spending more money on upkeep.

After my brain ticked a few more cycles, I begin to wonder how a 4-cyl would produce the same amount of power as the 6-cyl. Without looking at any data provided by Mercury, I would guess that the 4-cyl is a higher revving motor. This made me wonder if there would be in fact more maintenance on the 4-cyl due to a higher operating RPM.

I think I would lean to the 4-cyl based on the info provided here.

 

[MikDee]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

Hey Ex, Maybe you should keep an eye out for a Chevy Blazer 1995 & up With the Vortec 4.3 V6, with manually shiftable 2WD, to 4WD, These are great little mules, that are not bad on gas, for the power, But, don't do what I did, make sure it has a 3:42, or 3:73, gear ratio & preferably positraction. These are good for about 5000lbs, and they have a 4spd. overdrive automatic for fuel economy. My S-10 style Chevy pickup would be fine, but it has a crappy 3:08 ratio, that I'm about to change to 3:42's. These vehicles are plentiful, & reasonable, & better then the Explorer (IMO), and maybe better then the Jeep on gas. I know it won't be as smooth riding, peppy around town, or as economical as a Hyundai, but more suited as a workhorse, and towing. Ask around, I think you'll find this to be true, Good Luck, Mike

 

[Expidia]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

My initial thought on the 200HP 4-cyl vs. the 200HP 6-cyl were maintenance costs. I was thinking that with two more cylinders, you would be spending more money on upkeep.

After my brain ticked a few more cycles, I begin to wonder how a 4-cyl would produce the same amount of power as the 6-cyl. Without looking at any data provided by Mercury, I would guess that the 4-cyl is a higher revving motor. This made me wonder if there would be in fact more maintenance on the 4-cyl due to a higher operating RPM.

I think I would lean to the 4-cyl based on the info provided here.

Here is a link and review of how Mercury turns the same block into a 200 hp:

boats.com/news-reviews/article/the-outboard-expert-mercury-unveils-two-new-verado-models

There is a video some where on Merc's site I saw too that shows how they reduced the friction from the bearings and oil flow on the Verados.

 

[Expidia]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

Hey Ex, Maybe you should keep an eye out for a Chevy Blazer 1995 & up With the Vortec 4.3 V6, with manually shiftable 2WD, to 4WD, These are great little mules, that are not bad on gas, for the power, But, don't do what I did, make sure it has a 3:42, or 3:73, gear ratio & preferably positraction. These are good for about 5000lbs, and they have a 4spd. overdrive automatic for fuel economy. My S-10 style Chevy pickup would be fine, but it has a crappy 3:08 ratio, that I'm about to change to 3:42's. These vehicles are plentiful, & reasonable, & better then the Explorer (IMO), and maybe better then the Jeep on gas. I know it won't be as smooth riding, peppy around town, or as economical as a Hyundai, but more suited as a workhorse, and towing. Ask around, I think you'll find this to be true, Good Luck, Mike

Thx Mikdee, I'll have him keep an eye out for that Chevy's, but 10 years is too old for me. I'll stay less than 5 years old.

I can't drive a pick up. It always reminds me of playing a country western song backwards and hearing: I got my Girl back, I got my Dog back, I got my TRUCK back!!!

 

[DJ]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

QC,

It is nice to see graphs. That takes all the BS out of it.

Expidia,

Your propsed boat is big. However, it is a great boat and you get a huge bang for your buck. The same boat in fibergalss would require a heavy half ton pick up or a 3/4 ton pick up to tow with any confidence.

I have towed a 26' Crownline (read heavy-8K#) with an 06' F-150 Super Crew 4X4. It towed it very well but an F-250/350 would have been even better.

I would not automatically discount domestic trucks and SUV's. Their quality rivals and beats the imports in may cases. Look at Consumer Reports and JD Power. Don't let "perception" make up your mind. Regardless of what you buy, you are not going to get much for $10K.

'Waiting" to see if you have issues with a vehicle that does not have a tow package is a big mistake. When you notice something, it's alreeady too late. Engine temperature does not give you any idea of what transmission temperature is. You are going to be towing in the mountains. That is not the place to find out you underbought your tow vehicle.

Just because a vehicle has a tow packge doesn't mean it has been towing its whole life. Every vehicle I drive has a tow package. I get the package because it comes with a factory hitch and the necessary wiring not to mention the other necessities. My current vehicle is rated to tow 7500# but my boat weighs 1600#. I trade every year at about 15K miles. About 1K of that is towing something.

I have been towing things for 30 years. I probably have 100K miles of towing under my belt. I've learned what works and what does not. I do not even begin to tow something that overloads my equipment capabilities. It's not worth the risk. Many people don't feel that way and I see them on the side of the road with hoods up and burned out wheel bearings. I have never had a towing failure of any kind and my longest haul was 3900 miles.

Fuel economy and towing a boat your size do not go hand in hand. That's part of that ownership experience. You need V-8 or diesel power and you need a vehicle that has the equipment to handle your load. Look for a vehicle that has the equipment and is rated to tow at least 25% more of your towed weight. If you do that, you will have a good experience.

I would be looking for used Expeditions, Suburbans, Yukons, etc. People are selling them now because they think they are gas hogs. If driven reasonably, many of those actually turn some decent MPG.

 

[Expidia]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

Thx DJ for your comments . . . I've driven them all as I rent many cars each year for business and the full sized SUV's are way to huge for my needs.

Expeditions, Suburbans, Yukons these are monster vehicles and I've driven all 3.

I don't do trucks, so I'll have to settle for something like a Jeep Cherokee or a mid sized Ford SUV.
Even the 6 cyl Jeeps are rated to tow 5000 lbs and it weigh 5100 lbs.

http://www.edmunds.com/used/2003/jeep/grandcherokee/100170576/specs.html

Since I can get one at the auction, I can probably pick up a 2003 for around 8k. Edmunds shows this one in the link for specs, but it's a 6 cyl and only 2 wheel drive.

I'll just tell my guy to look for an 02 with 50-75k miles. I might even snag one for 5 or 6k. He just takes 1 k for his commission and I take the SUV as is with no 30-60 day warranty. This way he makes the 1,000 clean with no bounce backs.

If a cheap Jeep doesn't do it for me, I'd rather be flippin 5-10k SUV's than 36k boats every few years!

My capital needs to go into the boat set up first and some dollars put aside for I'm sure some needed repairs for a 5 or 6 year old Jeep with a poor reliability rating. But they have been getting better in the later years.

I'm sure I'll be buying into a Jeep headache but I'll flip it if it gives me any trouble. Buying at the auction allows you to do this. If I get stuck with a lemon he can work it through the auction again and dump it for another one.

I love the car auctions . . . as an example: I own two 9-5 Saabs that he got me at the auctions when they were 3 years old. Both sold new for 40k (off leases). They both had around 68k miles and I plan to drive them to 200k. Sure I've had to replace a few items here and there along the way, but for 11k for one and 13k for the other, I can't complain and both these cars still look brand new.

With gas at $100 per barrel SUV's are sure to take bigger hits on resale values this year. Same for boats. Not too many boaters are going to be happy forking over $5.00 per gal this year at the marinas. Many will say screw it and dump their boats. I've been told it's $4.75 at the FL marinas already.

I'm banking on resale boat prices continuing to get crushed. That's why I'm making a move from an 07 to an even bigger boat this season.

The tow vehicle is going to get as few of my dollars as possible since it
only has to get me to the lake and back. I might even keep the new boat in a marina slip on the Hudson River for a few months until I find a buy on a tow vehicle.

I checked with a Marina on Fri and they said about $1200 for the season but I'll only need a month or two of that, if I can't locate a decent tow SUV.

I'm taking your suggestion about the minimum 5k in weight and also the one about going higher on the towing capacity. 5,000 lbs is sure to cover it. I'll see if I can get an 8 cylinder too, as it will be better on gas than a struggling 6 cyl. going over mountains.

I just can't take your full size SUV suggestion or a pick up truck though.

And as you say many SUV's already come with the tow package ordered.

But thanks for all of your guidance DJ

 

[Paulie]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

I too have been looking for an islander. All bracket models I have seen, on
the lot, have had 150 Optimax motors. Saw one with a 200 honda or yamaha.
Most of the boats on the lots have the I/O. In 08, factory rigs any outboard
you want, the dealer does not touch it.
So, for your best deal, it is looking like and Optimax. Personally, I like them,
and I believe the fuel burn is less than the Verado. Superchargers like the gas.
Good Luck !

 

[Expidia]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

I too have been looking for an islander. All bracket models I have seen, on
the lot, have had 150 Optimax motors. Saw one with a 200 honda or yamaha.
Most of the boats on the lots have the I/O. In 08, factory rigs any outboard
you want, the dealer does not touch it.
So, for your best deal, it is looking like and Optimax. Personally, I like them,
and I believe the fuel burn is less than the Verado. Superchargers like the gas.
Good Luck !

I agree, my plan is just find the boat with the bracket first and worry about repowering if I need too next season. The Hondas and the Yamahas are heavier in the 4 stroke models as compared to the Verados. I think the Verado 4 is the lightest big name brand on the market.

If I find one with the Optimax 150, I'll probably use it for the remainder of the season and then sell it on craigslist and buy the Verado 200 4 cyl.

I just prefer a 4 stroke. The Optimax will sell super fast on Craigslist, so I should come out with some decent resale dollars if the outboard is a 2006 or better.

I'm in no rush, because I love the rig I have now. I'm sure with the price of oil per barrel there will be plenty of decent deals out there, but you may have to be willing to travel some distance to pick one up.