Pictures of broken Lower Units.

[jmpereira]

Hi, I'm looking for examples (pictures) of Lower Units that have been damaged buy shifting into gear at High RPMs and Others that have been damaged by freezing. <br /><br />I'm in a debate with my insurance Company regarding exactly what caused the damage to my out drive. I have a feeling the discussion will ultimately end up in court. Since I expect that the Judge to be a laymen, I would like to present several examples and causes of Lower Unit Damage and have him compare my damage.<br /><br />Please send Pictures to jmpereira@adelphia.net <br />Also do not send pictures after june-2004.. (I don't want my mail account to get flooded)...<br /><br />any help is appreciated.. <br /><br />thanks<br />joe.

 

[Doug Durako]

Re: Pictures of broken Lower Units.

Do you have all the drive oil change records from last year? (assuming this happened last year) If the drive cracked, you will have to prove there was no water in there.<br /><br />Also, look at your policy in the section on arbitration/appraisal. You can hire your expert and the Ins. co. will hire theirs---the two can work out the cause in front of an impartial party. This is better than spending $$ and losing in court----hard to sue your own carrier if this is your policy.<br /><br />Did you insurance carrier hire an engineer to prove their point?<br /><br />It would be better for you to post pics of your broken unit and get opinions from people on this post so we know what we are looking at.<br /><br />Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "shifting at high rpm." Can you describe what happened when you lost the unit?

 

[cobra 3.0]

Re: Pictures of broken Lower Units.

Can't help on your question, but for others out there, here is another reason to take off your drive and store it in a heated area over winter!

 

[WillyBWright]

Re: Pictures of broken Lower Units.

Simple diagnosis. If the housing was damaged from freezing, the innards will be intact. If the drive grenaded from high rpm shifting, the innards will be in pieces. I wouldn't expect an insurance company to pay on either of these. Freezing is caused by lack of proper maintenance, grenading is caused by operator error. If the damage was caused by striking an underwater hazard, then it should be covered.

 

[Doug Durako]

Re: Pictures of broken Lower Units.

WillyB---agree in general, but in the Northest they offer some boating policies with different coverages and exclusions.<br /><br />The insurance company should at least send a letter detailing which portion of the policy they are using to deny your claim.

 

[merc 140 pontoon]

Re: Pictures of broken Lower Units.

Joe -<br /><br />I spend a lot of time as an expert witness, and you're going at this wrong. The judge isn't going to look at pictures emailed to you by some guy on the Internet. You and he have no idea what they represent. You need to post your pictures, then listen to what these online experts tell you (just to educate yourself, not to use in court), and then find someone local who is qualified to look at your damage and write up a repair estimate that includes a diagnosis of the cause. I also recommend you try to get an answer out of the manufacturer (good luck). You also should not lead off your letter to the manufacturer with the word "lawsuit", or they will put you on their "circular file" list permanently. Good luck.<br /><br />Steve

 

[Doug Durako]

Re: Pictures of broken Lower Units.

Joe---you have three things to do:<br /><br />1. Determine how the damage occurred. I would hire an impartial, qualified, certified mechanic or engineer. Sometimes your local college can help you find people who have credentials to do this. May cost you a couple hundred bucks. If your insurance carrier has not already had this done, you can ask them to foot the bill.<br /><br />2. Determine if your policy covers the damage. Review the Perils section and read the exclusions carefully. If the adjuster is denying your claim, make sure you understand what section of the policy they are using to deny. Ask for everything in writing.<br /><br />3. Comply with all the conditions of the policy--usually found in the section "General Policy Conditions, what to do after a loss."<br /><br />If your answer to #2 above is yes, and you have complied with #3 to the letter, and the insurance company still denies your claim, go to the website for your state dept. of insurance and research how to file a complaint. If you get to this stage, let your insurance carrier know your intentions before you file. They are likely to take a closer look and that is when you need all your documentation.<br /><br />If you go to court, you may spend more than the unit would cost to repair.<br /><br />Good luck!

 

[Bondo]

Re: Pictures of broken Lower Units.

jmpereira,<br />I Think you'll find Much Better Responses to your Question, If you'd supply a little background Info.....<br /><br />What Exactly happened to Your's that you're Disputing ??????

 

[WillyBWright]

Re: Pictures of broken Lower Units.

Yeah. Getting pictures from a buncha motorheads with busted gearcases would be like relying on testamonials from fat people for diet pills. <br /><br />Besides, you cant cross-examine an e-mail.

 

[jmpereira]

Re: Pictures of broken Lower Units.

Hi, sorry I did not get back to youall sooner but I did not expect everyone to reply so fast... Sorry for this long winded explanation. But I want to be detailed because this is more help than I expected.<br /><br />Boat: 1999 Chaparral 22ft, Penta 5.0 engine, Cobra Out drive. 42 run hours. <br /><br />Damage to the boat (see Photos) 1. Crack Lower Unit, 2. Seized bearing on shaft that goes from Lower Unit to Transmission, 4. Water flooded the L/U and the Transmission<br />5. Shifter cable buckled. <br /><br />Weather: See graph (Server manage and general manager will sign affidavits stating that the boat was inside from oct 12 to Nov, 18. <br /><br />What the insurance Co says: A seal was bad, and filled the Gearcase with Water, when the freezing temperatures hit, it cracked the case. They will not commit as to how much water would have to be in the case and what temp it should be to crack the sever. The have also refused to pay for any 3rd party opinion, they say the burden of proof is on me and if the claim does go in my favor, then they will only pay for the repairs. <br /><br />The mechanic says: that when the boat popped out of gear (I was pushing on the throttle at the time) that it either jumped into reverse of popped back into drive. The trauma forced the cone gears in the L/U to spread apart forcing the unit to split and the torque caused the second crack. In when the oil spilled and water flooded the case it caused the bearing to burn and seize.

 

[jmpereira]

Re: Pictures of broken Lower Units.

This whole thing started last fall when I was boating on Columbus day weekend, after about 30 minutes at WOT, a loud bang occurred the whole boat shook and I came to a halt. After. At first I thought the engine seized so tested the engine and it started OK. There was play in the shifter and it did not shift into gear. (come to the find out later the clip that hold the cable to the shift body let go). Got towed to shore. <br /><br />The next day (oct 12) I dropped it off at the Marina, filled out the Winter storage paperwork and asked them to repair the cable. On Oct 21 they brought the boat into the shop to winterize it, it was winterized that week, the shrunk wrapped it on Nov 13,again in the shop. A friend and myself took a ride to the boat, at the end of Oct. and it was in the shop then too). it stayed in the shop until Nov 18, when the Mechanic got around to looking at the problem (they were storing some 400 boats, they start repair work after all the boats are winterized). at that time they said (he you got a crack Lower unit, and then informed me that I'm probably covered and to give the insurance co. a call.<br /><br />The came up and took a look at it and immediately said it was freeze damage. I got the final work on Jan 5th, at which time I tried to file and appeal with the Company, and then have no formal appeals process. They did agree to send the adjuster with me to meet with the mechanic to discuss this one more time. The insurance Company says Freeze, the mechanic says Trama due to popping in and out of gear. The Stories are not even close. <br /><br />Points to take into consideration: There’s 400 boats in the marina and not one other has experienced Freezing damage. The boat has only 42 hours run time, When I stored the boat the previous October, I had the oil changed. The boat was indoors..

 

[jmpereira]

Re: Pictures of broken Lower Units.

OK How do I post pictures????<br />thanks.<br />joe

 

[jmpereira]

Re: Pictures of broken Lower Units.

DBboater: <br />Do you have all the drive oil change records from last year? (assuming this happened last year) If the drive cracked, you will have to prove there was no water in there.<br /><br /> I had the oil changed last year, I have to call the shop (different shop) to pull my work order.<br /><br />Also, look at your policy in the section on arbitration/appraisal. You can hire your expert and the Ins. co. will hire theirs---the two can work out the cause in front of an impartial party. This is better than spending $$ and losing in court----hard to sue your own carrier if this is your policy.<br /><br />a- Never got a policy from this company. In any case they said that their opinion is final. they said that I could could get the rest of the Lu taken apart and have the gears magafluxed but they would not cover any of those charges...<br /><br />Did you insurance carrier hire an engineer to prove their point?<br /><br />a- Nope, they said that the burden of proof is on me. <br /><br />It would be better for you to post pics of your broken unit and get opinions from people on this post so we know what we are looking at.<br /><br />a- I'm trying to figure out how to do that..<br /><br />Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "shifting at high rpm." Can you describe what happened when you lost the unit?<br /><br />a- see my second reply.. <br /><br />thanks<br />joe

 

[jmpereira]

Re: Pictures of broken Lower Units.

willybwright<br />Simple diagnosis. If the housing was damaged from freezing, the innards will be intact. If the drive grenaded from high rpm shifting, the innards will be in pieces. I wouldn't expect an insurance company to pay on either of these. Freezing is caused by lack of proper maintenance, grenading is caused by operator error. If the damage was caused by striking an underwater hazard, then it should be covered.<br /> <br />a- the policy does cover the second type of damage. Freezing does not expain the seized bearing, since the boat was indoors and the marina will vouch to that fact then freezing is high unlikely. In order for it to crack like that, the lower unit had to have been filled with water, in which case in which case all the gears would have been cooked.. Also for water to expand that much it how to be colder than the 26% for 1 day. <br /><br />In the end, Yes the unit could have froze but so many things would have to happen just right, that it's highly unlikely. <br /><br />It's also a relatively new boat (42 hours on the clock) and the oil was changed the year before.

 

[WillyBWright]

Re: Pictures of broken Lower Units.

Sounds to me like this could end-up in court and you as the plaintiff will be responsible for proving your point. You'll need a third party evaluation (not where you had anything done before) for that and you'll have to pay for it up front. The insurance company will indeed reimburse you for that assessment if the judge finds in your favor no matter what the insurance company says. Legal fees as well. It'll all be included in the judgement.<br /><br />Now you have to consider how much money this could cost you if you lose in court. Legal fees could easily exceed the value of that drive. You experienced a significant event and you should've taken steps to have it looked into at that time (that's called "mitigating damage"). The delay by the marina in doing that hurt you. You also have to consider the AGE of the unit. The low hours would only affect the value minimally. The drive will have a range of value based on it's age, and the low hours should get you to the upper end of the range. You aren't going to get the full replacement value for that drive. Depreciation will be considered.<br /><br />In the end, the winners will be the lawyers as is the case in just about any case that doesn't involve pain and suffering or mental distress. You'll never get anything for lost enjoyment or anything like that. It'll strictly be based on what it's going to cost to repair or replace minus the depreciation. Plus any consequential legal and other professional costs.<br /><br />All I can say is I'm glad I'm not in your situation. In the end, you might lose less if you just look for a rebuilt unit and have it installed. Legal proceedings and possible appeals could keep your boat out of the water for months, maybe years. Then you'll have storage fees on top of lost time on your boat. Sucks, but that's about how things work. Arbitration might help, but it seems neither party wins or loses. Settlements usually fall somewhere in the middle.<br /><br />I wish you the best of luck no matter what you decide to do.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Pictures of broken Lower Units.

dude<br /> is this a cobra unit or a volvo sx unit?<br /> the SX had many many many oh my god way to many prop shaft seal failures. some fail 2 or 3 times in a season. I asked when I was at school and was told it was due to a defective bonding method. look at the prop shaft seal and see if the rubber is bonded to the seal or if the rubber spins on the seal.<br />if you can document it maybe volve will help. they have been very good so far. as far as shifting a cone cluct motor at high rpm's that will cause the top bearing to be ejected from the upper case. wont affect the lower unit at all. the gears are in constant mesh down below.<br /> take lots of pics get all your information. maybe call volvo and ask if there is a more knowledgeable dealer. if they "winterized" it they should have found the damage and bogus gearcase lube then.<br />good luck and keep posting

 

[jmpereira]

Re: Pictures of broken Lower Units.

Hi, it's a volvo drive. and I'll look into the seal. I know it go pretty destroyed with the took the propshaft. also even though this boat is fairly new, I bought it used so i don't think I can really fil a claim with volvo.... but I will look into it...<br /><br /> also, I found a rebuilt for about 3K at so I''ll have 4K into this fix (ouch)... also since it's under 5K I can file a small claims. I was not expecting the insurance to cover 100% of the repair.<br /><br />I know it's a tough road, i don't want to keep thowing good money after bad. this is why I'm searching for all the expertise I can get.. <br /><br />I know the delays Killed me, and it's I wish there was diect damage to the gears so that it there would be no question...<br /><br />Even though the Mechanic insists that the shifter causing the damage for a while I began to think that maybe the thought bearing could be the cause of the damage. lets say that the bearing seized and locked up tight (they will have to cut the case to remove the shaft).. Couldthis cause the damage...<br /><br />hey thanks for your help so far...<br /><br />joe.

 

[jmpereira]

Re: Pictures of broken Lower Units.

willy<br />Now you have to consider how much money this could cost you if you lose in court. Legal fees could easily exceed the value of that drive. You experienced a significant event and you should've taken steps to have it looked into at that time (that's called "mitigating damage"). The delay by the marina in doing that hurt you. You also have to consider the AGE of the unit. The low hours would only affect the value minimally. The drive will have a range of value based on it's age, and the low hours should get you to the upper end of the range. You aren't going to get the full replacement value for that drive. Depreciation will be considered.<br /><br />Yes I agree 100%. the daming thing was that the boatis an hour away, and when the had it moved to the marina it was raining and cold. Igave it a quick inspection, I was looking a the prop and was concerned that it would not turn.. I did not look closly at the Lower unit. <br /><br />I submitted my complaint to the insurance commision today. I also send a letter to the insurance company and asked them for a copy of my file and the names of the people who have reveiwed my case. <br />so the wheels are rolling...

 

[Bondo]

Re: Pictures of broken Lower Units.

I feel your Pain...<br />The way I read it, Your Problems is,<br />

after about 30 minutes at WOT, a loud bang occurred the whole boat shook and I came to a halt. After. At first I thought the engine seized so tested the engine and it started OK. There was play in the shifter and it did not shift into gear. (come to the find out later the clip that hold the cable to the shift body let go ).

I see that as a Mechanical Failure.....<br />And, I've never heard of an Insurance Policy that covered that... I'm Glad your's does...<br />The Siezed bearing points to a water intursion Prior to the clip falling off...<br />The Freeze Damage might have been avoided if it had been drained....(6 hours at 28*, will Split an engine block, 26* for 1 day is Plenty)<br />So, It Looks to Me, That you've got 3 Issues that came together in Perfect Harmony......<br />Good Luck...

 

[jmpereira]

Re: Pictures of broken Lower Units.

Bondo, Kinda the ying and yang of boating... <br />as for what covered, the clip and replacing the cable is not covered however, any damaged that was a result fo that cable is covered.. <br />(it's like when a roof leaks, the insurnace will cver the damage done by the rain, but they will not pay to repiar the roof). <br /><br />also, I agree in the temp. However I have the marina general manager, the server manager and the mechanic who worked on the boat willing to sign and affidiaitt(sp) that the boat was indoors fo rthe month.. <br /><br />also just how much water needs toe in the gearcase? any idea how to post pictures??<br />the damage isnot the typical bubbling that you see with freezing. it's more like 60% of the nose crack off,..