Plywood for Floor - Resin Coating

Yacht Dr.

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Re: Plywood for Floor - Resin Coating

Or plywood ..

Ya know .. ook .. Pray tell MR. Slam your chemistry book across the heads of Iboats .. what Would you do with CDX .. or ABX .. or MDO .. or whatever ..

How would you prep X wood.. mebbe you should start a sticky thread on HOW to Proper Prep DlY by the one and only

I try to help man .. you Chemisize every thing i say. .. Im giving out Good Info here ..

Lemme tell ya.. US GUYS that DO this for a Living KNOW !! .

#20 post is right ..

YD.
 

sschefer

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Re: Plywood for Floor - Resin Coating

Y.D... I'm on the floor now... darn near spit coffee all over a contract I'm workin on... Yep, experience is often the wisest of teachers.
 

Yacht Dr.

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Re: Plywood for Floor - Resin Coating

Never mind.

For the Record ondarvr .. you Edited this #21 post for some reason .. your origional post was

Today 06:21 PM #21
ondarvr
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Re: Plywood for Floor - Resin Coating
It's obvious some people know little about the chemistry resins.


Now After YOUR Edit " Never mind. " ( Thats what Iboaters see now and forever is this Edited version of your Post !! ) .

No no .. your POST was " It's obvious some people know little about the chemistry resins. "

I dont get it why you would subtract your post .. why not just post again in the Thread ?? .. or PM me .. Why do people Edit there posts other then spell checking. Completely Deleting your posts and putting something there afterwards is kinda .. F'D up ... Man up Dude. .. Type it .. say it .. mean it .. or Dont type it. .. IMO ..

YD.

PS. This is why I dont like the anon edits of posts.. its completely out of context and someone can skew the thread just on context...
 

jasoutside

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Re: Plywood for Floor - Resin Coating

Oh boy, this is not going very well at all.
 

Scott Chinsota

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Re: Plywood for Floor - Resin Coating

i know next to nothing am am thankful to hear both sides from people who know way more than I. now you two play nice and enlighten us all
 

Hydra-sport_Road-kill

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Re: Plywood for Floor - Resin Coating

i know next to nothing am am thankful to hear both sides from people who know way more than I. now you two play nice and enlighten us all

I second that sentiment. We newbies come away from a debate like this knowing or feeling like we know both or even several approaches to a task. Oh, and it makes for entertainment as well. let's call it edutainment. OK, going to get a beer now, please continue.
 

ondarvr

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Re: Plywood for Floor - Resin Coating

I did change it, it didn?t seem worth arguing about, but if you would like to discuss it, we can.

All research done on the subject of thinning resins (either type) shows the physical properties drop rapidly, even the sticky at the top of the page done by West Systems shows the dramatic drop in water resistance and strength of epoxy when just 5% of a thinner is added, yet you suggest 25% thinner.

It seems that the chemists and technicians that formulate and test these products recommend against thinning them, yet you appear to know better and recommend thinning them to a very high %. Thinning for penetration and rot prevention is worthless, rot prevention has nothing to do with penetration, it?s all about encapsulation with a waterproof barrier, plus the amount of increase in penetration minimal.

Because you have done it this way for years doesn?t mean it?s the correct way to do it, it only means redoing the poor workmanship of the original build (which may have lasted 20 or 30 years) with much better workmanship and attention to detail will allow it to last at least the same amount of time, even though the resin has been thinned.

Thinning resins was a fad a couple decades ago, but the results were poor and although there are still some that sell thinned epoxies, they are about the only people that promote this method. Builders of large custom epoxy over wood boats/yachts abandoned thinned epoxies long ago.


I don?t doubt you try to supply the best information and methods you are aware of, and much of it is very helpful, but there are areas where the suggestions aren?t correct or accurate.


I had 30+ years of hands on fabrication before going to work for companies that actually formulate, test and produce these products, I thought I had most of it figured out until I was shown how the products were designed to actually be used and compared it to what I had learned coming up through the industry. What I found was that much of what?s considered "common practice" in the fiberglass industry is not how the products should be used, and that these practices lead to many of the common failures seen in boats built during that time period. It wasn?t until composite engineers were hired into the industry that things started to improve, but breaking those old habits and beliefs has been slow and difficult.

I will say that for many years (decades) the suppliers of these products did a poor job of passing on how the products should be used.
 

scott hamilton

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Re: Plywood for Floor - Resin Coating

Thanks for all your informaion guys. Very much appreciated and obviously something you both know a lot about. Very impressive!
 

oops!

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Re: Plywood for Floor - Resin Coating

I did change it, it didn?t seem worth arguing about, but if you would like to discuss it, we can.

All research done on the subject of thinning resins (either type) shows the physical properties drop rapidly, even the sticky at the top of the page done by West Systems shows the dramatic drop in water resistance and strength of epoxy when just 5% of a thinner is added, yet you suggest 25% thinner.

It seems that the chemists and technicians that formulate and test these products recommend against thinning them, yet you appear to know better and recommend thinning them to a very high %. Thinning for penetration and rot prevention is worthless, rot prevention has nothing to do with penetration, it?s all about encapsulation with a waterproof barrier, plus the amount of increase in penetration minimal.

Because you have done it this way for years doesn?t mean it?s the correct way to do it, it only means redoing the poor workmanship of the original build (which may have lasted 20 or 30 years) with much better workmanship and attention to detail will allow it to last at least the same amount of time, even though the resin has been thinned.

Thinning resins was a fad a couple decades ago, but the results were poor and although there are still some that sell thinned epoxies, they are about the only people that promote this method. Builders of large custom epoxy over wood boats/yachts abandoned thinned epoxies long ago.


I don?t doubt you try to supply the best information and methods you are aware of, and much of it is very helpful, but there are areas where the suggestions aren?t correct or accurate.


I had 30+ years of hands on fabrication before going to work for companies that actually formulate, test and produce these products, I thought I had most of it figured out until I was shown how the products were designed to actually be used and compared it to what I had learned coming up through industry. What I found was that much of what?s considered common practice in the fiberglass industry is not how the products should be used, and that these practices lead to many of the common failures seen in boats built during that time period. It wasn?t until composite engineers were hired into the industry that things started to improve, but breaking those old habits and beliefs has been slow and difficult.

I will say that for many years (decades) the suppliers of these products did a poor job of passing on how the products should be used.

this is just super information.

thank you ondarvr.


for those who dont know ondarvrs back ground/occupation......(he was really light on his description)
he worked in fiberglassing and gellcoating for over 30 years.......so as far as fibreglass and gellcoat building/repair.....he has been there done that !
but more than that.......he was sent back to repair the same items he was part of building 20 years earlier.....so he got to see what went wrong with the building techniques they had used 2 decades ago...
for this reason he was hired by the number one gellcoat manufacture in the nation.
he is considered by rival company's to be one of the top fibreglass/gellcoat experts in north America. when he starts spitting stats....it is in our best interests to listen up.

no offence yd..(and you know i have high respect for you) .but this guy works right beside the guys in the lab coats that make and test the stuff. I have personally seen him give advanced classes to a room full of veteran glassers and gellcoaters, so when he says that thinning it weakens it....it weakens it....and you know what can happen with a weak layer between the sub-straight and laminate. you know, just because it cures, does not mean it is as strong as it is designed to be.

i hope this calms things down a notch or two......we all want the same thing here.....to give people the best factual information/guidance we can.

cheers
oops
 

jigngrub

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Re: Plywood for Floor - Resin Coating

Thanks. Unfortunately, the plywood is cut and drying so I'm past that. I will go with the 635. Sounds good. Do you think that it would help to put a piece of rubber (like an innertube thickness) or tar paper between the plywood and bare aluminum? I never though of the corrosion issue.

You have a long wait for that 5/8" plywood to dry unless you live where it's really warm and dry, then it'll still take a month or more at 90*F.

Whatever you do just remember that wherever you have a fastener penetrating your deck into the framing of your boat you will have a potential leak that will weep the pressure treating chemicals into your boat, onto the framing and into the bilge.

Why put your $1000+ boat at risk over $100 worth of plywood?
 

scott hamilton

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Re: Plywood for Floor - Resin Coating

You guys are right. The 1979 18' Sylvan Skipper aluminum hull is dry as a bone and clean which is why I chose to rebuild anyways. I guess I wasted $70 bucks on 3 sheets of treated ply.

1. So, marine plywood or just regular exterior grade plywood (with the UScomposites 635 epoxy resin?)
 

jasoutside

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Re: Plywood for Floor - Resin Coating

You guys are right. The 1979 18' Sylvan Skipper aluminum hull is dry as a bone and clean which is why I chose to rebuild anyways. I guess I wasted $70 bucks on 3 sheets of treated ply.

1. So, marine plywood or just regular exterior grade plywood (with the UScomposites 635 epoxy resin?)



Oh Scott, I am cracking up here man! You don't know it but you closed up one can of worms only to open another!:D:D

The debate is never ending but here is my take on those two specifically ^^^ (quick version):

Marine grade is excellent stuff! But, 2 or 3 times the price of exterior grade. Get it and use it if your budget allows!

Exterior grade is great! Much cheaper, not as nice to work with and it will draw in a bit more epoxy. No biggie though.

Many of the alum boat guys around here have gone with Arauco Plywood as a compromise between the quality and price of marine grade and regular exterior grade.

I personally like the Med 3:1 here...

http://www.uscomposites.com/epoxy.html

(not thinned for the record)

Enjoy!:)
 

scott hamilton

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Messages
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Re: Plywood for Floor - Resin Coating

Funny! Thanks for all your help.

Nice islander by the way.
 

Cadwelder

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Re: Plywood for Floor - Resin Coating

"sometimes....there just aren't enough rocks" .....Forest Gump.
 

jones01m

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Re: Plywood for Floor - Resin Coating

So, is it wise for Scott to add glass to the deck with epoxy, or is that simply overkill. I am asking for myself too. thanks
 

sschefer

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Re: Plywood for Floor - Resin Coating

So, is it wise for Scott to add glass to the deck with epoxy, or is that simply overkill. I am asking for myself too. thanks

Rather than debating what's best and what's overkill try to think of it like this.. How old is the boat, how long do I plan to keep it and if I sell it, what are the odds that the new owner will give a darn. Plain old 5/8" ply with nothing on it will last a good 3-5 years on the kids play house in the back yard in a full four season environment. Humm... The deck in my boat was 5/8 acx with some sort of varnish on it and it lasted 15 years. Am I going to keep this thing for another 15 years?

Once you go to all the trouble of glassing it or whatever you're going to cover it with vinyl or carpet and never look at it again and if you sell it are you going to pull the carpet out to prove the decks have been glassed?

Keep it simple, spend less on the deck and more on gas having fun on the lake.
 

ondarvr

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Re: Plywood for Floor - Resin Coating

Rather than debating what's best and what's overkill try to think of it like this.. How old is the boat, how long do I plan to keep it and if I sell it, what are the odds that the new owner will give a darn. Plain old 5/8" ply with nothing on it will last a good 3-5 years on the kids play house in the back yard in a full four season environment. Humm... The deck in my boat was 5/8 acx with some sort of varnish on it and it lasted 15 years. Am I going to keep this thing for another 15 years?

Once you go to all the trouble of glassing it or whatever you're going to cover it with vinyl or carpet and never look at it again and if you sell it are you going to pull the carpet out to prove the decks have been glassed?

Keep it simple, spend less on the deck and more on gas having fun on the lake.

This is the type of advise more people should follow on this site. Putting in a good grade of exterior plywood and then using a non skid porch paint would work very well in the majority of projects here. People get lost in the ?what is the absolute best method? line of thought instead of ?what is the best use of my time and funds on a boat that isn?t worth much money and I don?t plan on keeping forever?

I have two aluminum jet boats at my place (neither is mine) that have painted plywood floors, these boats sit outside unprotected year round , both are holding up very well and the owners are happy.

When they decided to re-do the floors in these boats they asked me about different methods and what to expect. After I laid out the steps and cost for each method they chose this simple low cost option which may last 8 to 10 years and was completed in a day for about a hundred bucks. In the future if the plywood fails and they still own the boat it will cost another hundred bucks and a day of work to replace it. Chances are they will have sold the boats long before the wood fails though.
 
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