Presidential address on Irag

[Kilgore Trout]

Re: Presidential address on Irag

Its a good debate.There are two thought processes going on here, and It is obvious that people are sticking with their beleifs, and that will not change. The election process begins next year, and people will elect a president on those beleifs. GWB had better start making a better case if he wants to stay in office. He holds only a small percentage lead against an unknown contender.<br /><br />But what I do resent that people opposed to the action in Iraq are called un-American or un patriotic. <br /><br />I love my country. I have instillled in me to fight for what I believe is to be right. My mom was with the dutch resistance during the war. She would tell of unclles and cousins who died in trying to free the dutch. She was also very, very grateful to the US for what they did for holland. With all its faults, the US is still the greatest country on the face of the earth. <br /><br />I spent a little too much time on the board yesterday. I'm glad I did. I'm a relative new comer here, and pretty much stayed away from political discussions on this board. But I love the dynamics of politics . We would be like North Korea if everybody shared the same thought process of our leaders.<br /><br />Just so it is clear, I don't think any less of anybody with views contrary to mine. Many of my friends are very conservative republicans (I do live in Orange County, CA) They are fun to pick on, but they are still my friends.

 

[SCO]

Re: Presidential address on Irag

You gotta consider that Buchannan is an isolationist, and his ideas are appealing. Maybe it would work to fold up tent, declare victory and come home with a promise to be Baaaak if things get out of hand but instinct tells me the last 2 years efforts would be wasted if we did that. Kiwi, TS about us going into Iraq. Their sovereignty does not allow them to plan for our destruction. We can't have an Achilles heel like that. You cite the golden rule("Treat people as you would have them treat you"). Saddam would not return the favor I bet. I guess we are arguing about the required standard of proof for taking action. We know who the bad guys are, and we know what they are doing but some of you would prefer that we be handcuffed into inaction. I was present during the 60's, and the appealing notion was that war is all just a big misunderstanding...if only we would break the cycle and be nice to each other. It's a pipe dream. It's obvious that those that hate us have been building and planning and killing us because they sensed weakness. We have to set them straight on that. All of our capitulations have come home to roost: Viet Nam(a complicated subject but a horrible illustration to the world's wolves of how we as a people can be divided), the Carter desert hostage rescue attempt, Beruit, Mogadiscio, The Cole, the Clinton cruise missle "attack". To continue to capitulate post 911 screams fear and weakness and invites aggression from people whose mentality is rooted in the middle ages, not the hallowed halls of 60's Berkeley. We have a great President. He has more info than any of us. I for one am going to let him lead.

 

[NOSLEEP]

Re: Presidential address on Irag

If you dont support your country during war time,<br />it is so antiamerican. But you can call it<br />measles or any thing you like.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Re: Presidential address on Irag

Heres were I stand:<br /><br />We were wrong to go in. Period. <br /><br />But now we are in, and It looks like it is going to be a long time. We need to make sure our milatary has all the resources they need to sucessfully complete the mission. <br /><br />If there are any lesson learned form the Soviet Occupation of afghanistan is:<br /><br />A) don't try to force a unilateral puppet government on a people for the most part see you as occupiers, not liberators<br /><br />B) Do not leave until a stable, efficient, working government and infrastructure are in place.<br /><br />Since 3 of my co workers have brothers over there, I would hate to see anything bad happen to any of them or thier compatriots. <br /><br />Finding Saddam, and displaying him like a caged animal (maybe in a cell with a pig) would be a big step in bring calm to the area.

 

[SCO]

Re: Presidential address on Irag

Trout, I'm not baiting you here(no pun intended), but why do you think we should not have gone into Iraq? This might be a good direction for debate.

 

[12Footer]

Re: Presidential address on Irag

"If there are any lesson learned form the Soviet Occupation of afghanistan is:<br /><br />A) don't try to force a unilateral puppet government on a people for the most part see you as occupiers, not liberators<br /><br />B) Do not leave until a stable, efficient, working government and infrastructure are in place."<br />Dood...We had our Vietnam, and showed THEM how not to do it, didn't we?<br />Nobody said this was going to be a cake-walk. But instead of feeling triuphant over the MINESCULE loss of American lives durring the regime change phase, all we hear about is how much it costs, and the "human bombs take-out two more Americans today"! This is sad commentary to be sure. But it falls way short of the goal, which is to leave Iraq only after the country is stable. The UN would like nothing better than to see us leave, and the country fall into pure anarchy. That way, it could really become thier feeding trough of global support.<br />Get US out of the UN, and the UN of of the US!<br />They left US high and dry, and are still as wishy-washy as a tennis match.We don't need them, and we need to stop patronizing thier plastic "concerns". They are a joke, modeled after the "Federation" on Star Trek..That would be great, if it werked as well as it does in the movies, but---- I would give them a "vote of no confidence" (Like that Queen isabella (or whatever her name was) did in Star Wars,in it's version of the "UN".--And move on.<br /><br />"Since 3 of my co workers have brothers over there, I would hate to see anything bad happen to any of them or thier compatriots." <br />Me too, mate, me too.<br /><br />"Finding Saddam, and displaying him like a caged animal (maybe in a cell with a pig) would be a big step in bring calm to the area." <br />It surely would!

<br />

<br />Or to let the Iraqi people drag him thru the streets like the mutants did to our soldiers in Mogadishu (a vision that I'll never forget, like that of the towers collapsing). Let them drag him into the bowels of his own underground torture chamber, and never be heard of again! That would be poetic justice for sure.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Re: Presidential address on Irag

You can read my previous posts. I spent a lot of time here yesterday. Too much. <br /><br />Basically I comes down to unilaterally invading a third rate dictatorship on dubious evidence.<br /><br />Gulf war 1: Legitimate action<br />Afghanistan: Legitimate Action<br />Gulf War 2: Bad<br /><br />I don't feel like rehashing this.

 

[SCO]

Re: Presidential address on Irag

Fair enough.

 

[12Footer]

Re: Presidential address on Irag

Fair enough lol<br />And "GULF 2" is way far from being over!<br />Bad? lol

 

[plywoody]

Re: Presidential address on Irag

I do not generally agree with Buchanon, and think many of his ideas are dubious at best. I am in no way an isolatinist. I think his plan to declare victory and go home is a bad plan. I just think it is the best plan I have heard yet, from a mass of very bad options available.<br /><br />I cannot even imagine any sort of scenario in Iraq that is possible to happen that could look anything like a victory.<br /><br />There is not a single group, government, or terror organization over there that wants to see democracy succeed. Can we install a puppet type government, like Karzai in Afghanistan, and have it succeed? Not likely, unless we support it with many more troops.<br /><br />Democracy is a messy form of government. They have no experience with it, and from the looks of things, after 200 plus years, we aren't so good at it either, as it appears that a good share of people who claim to like freedom and democracy, want to label others who question the current leadership as "Anti-American"<br /><br />Would it not have been lovely if they thought that way during the Clinton administration? apparently there is a different standard of "patriotism" in place now than existed under Clinton. <br /><br />And it is not just me. Criminy, the right went after the Dixie Chicks, of all people, for daring to voice an opinion.<br /><br />If we can't figure out how to make it work, how in the world are they supposed to?<br /><br />Oh, and 12footer, all of the time you spend on highlighting sections of your posts and putting them in "bold" type is pretty much wasted effort. I hate to tell you this, but a bad idea is still a bad idea, no matter what decibel level the idea is delivered at.

 

[SCO]

Re: Presidential address on Irag

Fair enough that I have to look it up since Trout hashed it out when I wasn't paying attention 12! This is a messy business PW, we agree there. It is painfull and difficult to make this stand, but the alternatives are half measures and not making a stand, the paths we took to Sept 11, 2001.

 

[12Footer]

Re: Presidential address on Irag

"Oh, and 12footer, all of the time you spend on highlighting sections of your posts and putting them in "bold" type is pretty much wasted effort. I hate to tell you this, but a bad idea is still a bad idea, no matter what decibel level the idea is delivered at."<br />You mean that? I'm highlighting YOU for the most part. I sure don't want anyone to thin k I would type such stuff. It's a form of seperating what you say, from my response. If you would feel better about it, I can reverse it. Would that be better? One thing is for sure....i;ll do my best to make sure nobody thinks I said that.<br /><br />The Dipsy Chinks are reeping the benifits of what they have sewn. They place themselves on a stage, and perform,and make statements about the president of thier own country, and thier low opinion of him, and expect the people they play for to roar thier applause!! DUH..They got what they aimed for...to bad,so sad, nobody wants thier crap anymore.<br />Like Cat Stevens, they choose the side they are fighting for, and it aint ours!

 

[JGREGORY]

Re: Presidential address on Irag

Ok Plywoody, <br /><br />You have diagreed with what the administration is doing, and with just about everybody in this post that says you don't leave a job undone...<br /><br />I would like to know how you would handle this situation and accomplish the following goals.<br /><br />1. Capture Saddam<br /><br />2. Eliminate Iraq as a potential source for terrorist activities.<br /><br />3. Give the Iraqi people a chance at self-determination. It will not happen as long as Saddam is still around, or while there are fanatical fringe groups.<br /><br />4. and finally leave Iraq with our heads held high because we have left Iraq better than we found it.<br /><br />anything short of accomplishing these 4 points means we lost American lives for no reason.

 

[oddjob]

Re: Presidential address on Irag

Were winning against terrorism for the world, winning against appeasement, winning against anti-Americans, winning against the main stream media as well as their dubius polls, winning liberty for grateful Iragis. <br /><br />Since, you brought up polls lets have one or two now...<br /><br />First poll just a yea or nea please.. no ranting)<br /><br />1."Do you support the Bush foreign policy on Iraq?"<br /><br />2."Will you vote for Bush in his re-election campaign?"<br /><br />Myself:<br /><br />1.yea <br /><br />2.yea <br /><br />Note:<br />if you respond to this poll please correct the new totals:<br /><br />Totals:<br /><br />responses=1<br /><br />#1. yea=1 vs. nea=0<br /><br />#2. yea=1 vs. nea=0<br /><br />Moderaters feel free to moderate .

 

[12Footer]

Re: Presidential address on Irag

ODDJOB...

 

[wvit100]

Re: Presidential address on Irag

Hey 12-Footer, the Dixie Chicks opened their concert tour in Greenville, South Carolina to a sold out show.<br /><br />(CNN) -- The Dixie Chicks are scheduled to open their U.S. tour Thursday night in Greenville, South Carolina, at the 15,000-plus-seat Bi-Lo Center. The show is sold out -- as are most shows on the tour.

 

[12Footer]

Re: Presidential address on Irag

I'm sorry. The dipsy chinks are doomed financially, in spite of the best efforts of two extremely wealthy supporters. Follow the money, my friend. It will tell the story.<br />What I could do with 87 Billion would still many emotions.

 

[oddjob]

Re: Presidential address on Irag

Thanks 12er!<br /><br />First poll just a yea or nea please.. no ranting)<br /><br />1."Do you support the Bush foreign policy on Iraq?"<br /><br />2."Will you vote for Bush in his re-election campaign?"<br /><br />Note:<br />if you respond to this poll please correct the new totals:<br /><br />Totals:<br /><br />responses=2<br /><br />#1. yea=2 vs. nea=0<br /><br />#2. yea=2 vs. nea=0<br /><br />Moderaters feel free to moderate .

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Re: Presidential address on Irag

First poll just a yea or nea please.. no ranting)<br />1."Do you support the Bush foreign policy on Iraq?"<br />2."Will you vote for Bush in his re-election campaign?"<br />Note:<br />if you respond to this poll please correct the new totals:<br />Totals:<br />responses=2<br />#1. yea=2 vs. nea=1<br />#2. yea=2 vs. nea=1<br />Moderaters feel free to moderate

 

[12Footer]

Re: Presidential address on Irag

corrected