Presidential address on Irag

SCO

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Re: Presidential address on Irag

Trout, to be fair and balanced I suggest the following addition to your last post.<br />"Left wing Liberals like to use the word "Dittohead" like it is some kind of curse word. That is usually followed by redneck or stupid." :eek:
 

Skinnywater

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Re: Presidential address on Irag

Personally I'm not happy with either one of my leaders.<br /><br />First, it needs to be made public just what exactly the government of Saudi Arabia's part in 9/11 was, then act accordingly.<br />Second, we need to start up the draft. Then line up troops and hardware on the Iranian and Syrian border.<br />Third the entire Pacific fleet needs to be parked 50 miles off N. Korea's border.<br />Give them all 72 hours to unconditionally surrender all means of terror, period.<br /><br />Ariel Sharon needs to give the order to assasinate (gun him down like a dog)Arafat. Give Hammas and all the Palistinians 32 hours to surrender unconditionally. Or, after that time any man, woman or child Palistinian needs to beat feet it to whatever border to escape death. Leave Isreal period.<br /><br />To much wussy footing going on here by these two.
 

plywoody

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Re: Presidential address on Irag

J Gregory wrote:<br /><br />I would like to know how you would handle this situation and accomplish the following goals.<br /><br />1. Capture Saddam<br /><br />I'm more interested in capturing Bin Laden, and attacking terrorist groups like AlQaida where we know they are, like Indonesia and the Phillipines and Saudi etc...but I hope we find Saddam. If you think that he is somehow orchestrating this whole thing, and will suddenly disappear when he is gone, you are dreaming.<br /><br />---------quote<br />2. Eliminate Iraq as a potential source for terrorist activities.<br />----------------------<br />It wasn't a source of terrorists until we took out Saddam. Now it surely is. And there are enough radical Islamics over there, with enough power and voice to the people, who hate anything American, to keep up a steady supply of terrorists into the future. Saddam led with an iron hand. He was brutal to any he percieved as a threat to his power. There is no question about that. But he also considered groups like Al-quaida a threat to him as well, and treated them the same. I know this will sound like I am defending Saddam, but I am not. But there was a reason he led with such an iron hand, and his techniques, while effective, are not possible for the occupiers to copy for obvious reasons.<br /><br />------------quote<br /><br />3. Give the Iraqi people a chance at self-determination. It will not happen as long as Saddam is still around, or while there are fanatical fringe groups.<br />---------------------------<br /><br />fanatical fringe groups? That is a definition for the entire Arab world. I see absolutely no way for any sort of self-determination of the Iraq people ever possibly being implemented. There is no history in the entire region. they need a bunch of Thomas Jeffersons and Ben Franklins with Iraqi citizenship and such to miraculously rise up from the ashes and convince the people it is in their best interests. I guess miracles can happen, but it is dangerous to plan foreign policy on them.<br /><br />--------quote<br />4. and finally leave Iraq with our heads held high because we have left Iraq better than we found it.<br /><br />-----------------<br /><br />I would have absolutely no idea how to accomplish this. Not a clue. Which is why I would have never entered this without a clear international coalition, including Arab states like Turkey and such, and a clear international mandate.<br /><br />It is too late for that. So sorry, I have no good ideas for this situation. I have only choices among bad ideas, at this stage of the conflict.<br /><br />I would have spent the time going after specific known terrorist groups, like Alqaida and Hamas and the like. We may not know where all of them are but clearly there is work to do in the Phillipines and Indonesia, not to mention Saudi Arabia and Syria and Iran and Pakistan and who knows where all else. these are the people that truly threaten us, and continue to threaten us<br /><br />quote-----<br />anything short of accomplishing these 4 points means we lost American lives for no reason<br />---------<br /><br />Sadly, I agree with this.
 

Ralph 123

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Re: Presidential address on Irag

Great, no plan. Just rhetoric and you critisize GW and people actually doing something?<br /><br />You do run a company right PW? Am I wrong? Didn't you say you run a plywood company and get plants up and running?
 

Skinnywater

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Re: Presidential address on Irag

Ply, You've made yourself 100% clear. We all are completely clear your position.<br /><br />At this point it doesn't matter. What's done is done. <br />However, my greatest fear is that dissent will grow. Along with that dissent will come a future leader who will stand down. <br />For the sake of debate, lets say you're right about Iraq.<br />At what point would you say that your shoulda, coulda, woulda talk. Your need to be right. Your "I told you so" attitude. Your desire for dissent. Be considered bad for the overall objective, counterproductive and dangerous?<br /><br />I'm perplexed why someone with such an objective mind wouldn't see that continued dissent, withdraw or compromise will be seen by our enemies as weakness. That you've not seen that it's to late to stop or stand down or retreat.<br />That even a questionable mistake at this point must be seen through with a steadfast completion of this mission.<br />Any deviation of defeat of any of our enemies could mean the complete defeat of this country. <br /><br />The arguement hasn't been between left, right, conservative, liberal. It's been between people who truely realize the depth of the situation and the ones that shoulda, coulda, woulda talk thier way to bad morale.<br /><br />So for the sake of humanity, the country, our boys fighting for your precious plywood. <br />What can I do for you? The President doesn't care about you. So, can I write your Govenor up in Washington as tell him your unhappy?<br />Aside from giving up our country, what can we do for you ply? How can we make it better?<br />Do you need money? How much? Can I take you fishing? Some pretty big Salmon in the river right now, Wanna go?<br />See, I'll do just about anything to keep you happy. Misery loves company you know and I don't want a bunch of miserable, shoulda, coulda, woulda, people getting togeather and kill my country. I'd be real sad if one of my daughters gets killed crossing the Bay bridge when it gets blown up. :( :( <br />So ply, you've got me here! I'M BEGGING YOU MAN!<br /> :( :( <br /><br />I'm begging all you other guys too. PLEASE ASK HIM!<br />Ask him what can you do to make him happy. <br />Someone here has to know what it'll take. He's here with all the negativity, begging for help.........and his dissent is spreading. :(
 

Ralph 123

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Re: Presidential address on Irag

However, my greatest fear is that dissent will grow. Along with that dissent will come a future leader who will stand down. <br />
I could not agree more. If that happens we are screwed. I don't worry do much for me but for my son and the world he will inherit.<br /><br />I worry about all my friends working in all the big buildings in all the major cities of the US.<br /><br />I worry about all my friends in all those planes each and every day.<br /><br />I worry when my wife takes my boy to a mall or into downtown Boston.<br /><br />I will worry until we get this situation fully under control.
 

Link

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Apr 13, 2003
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Re: Presidential address on Irag

Ralph said it all! With the first reply! Should have been the end of this tread.. <br />Good Point Mellow.. was just ticked.. :) <br />Hows that <br />Link
 

Link

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Re: Presidential address on Irag

Just a bump ^---^ to thank mellowyellow<br />You were correct and I did edit the reply.<br />Confirms my point that "Kids" should be seen and<br />not heard! :) <br />I just don't like cheap shots taken from the left <br />at OUR President!.. If You don't like him then <br />don't vote for him. <br />Guess everyone knows where I stand! Oh Well<br />But MY was correct, I did go over the line and I did edit! :) After all this is a boating forum<br />for the most part. Except for the jokes I don't think I will spend much in this area.. <br /><br />Link<br />And once again thanks Mellow, you were correct! <br /><br />Link
 

plywoody

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Re: Presidential address on Irag

Dissent, I'm sorry to say, is a fundamental and necessary part of democracy. If you wish to eliminate dissent, and lots of other countries and governmments have, you have to change the type of government.<br /><br />And, yes, I like to solve problems and I am good at turning mills around.<br /><br />The key to this is to accurately identify precisely what the problem is before attempting any solution. Sounds simple, perhaps, but it is by far the hardest part of the process, and the most easily neglected.<br /><br />And I am careful, once the problem is identified, to attempt to implement solutions that are possible.
 

Ralph 123

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Re: Presidential address on Irag

"In this country you can say what every you want but the minute it's out of your mouth you gotta live with it." -- Charlie Daniels.
 

wvit100

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Re: Presidential address on Irag

After reading all your posts I still cannot bring myself to think of the world in your simple terms. But I can understand why it is a lot easier to let oneself think that way. To understand the Average American is to let go of every useful lesson life has taught me and to give in to the vague nagging of long-repressed voices in my head, the ones planted by peers in grade school and reinforced by advertising. Maybe if I drove a colossal sport utility vehicle, my grass really would grow thicker and greener. If I switched to AOL, I'd discover that this was the place where all my friends have been online all these years. If my ***** were only three inches longer, well, hell, there's no telling how much happier I'd be! And all those guys in the Middle East - the ones with turbans on their heads who talk funny. They're all part of one big anti-American conspiracy. By attacking Iraqi, we're taking decisive action in the war against terrorism. Those terrorists who think they're going straight to Heaven when they die killing us - once we show 'em, they'll learn that our version of life plus eternity is simply better than theirs. Especially that life part of the equation. How can a life spent soberly swatting flies in a camel-dung hut compare to cracking brewskis and watching football in a democracy?<br /><br />Okay, maybe it's not that simple, though such simplistic thoughts surely sustain the contentment of vast majorities. Such people have the luxury of not being responsible, even though in a democracy on some level they are. The guy who really is responsible has a preference for the simple answers and even simpler solutions, but with the information he has available, these days his head must be throbbing.
 

oddjob

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Re: Presidential address on Irag

vwit100,<br />Sorry about your little throbbing peanut...... You could have a sex change though!<br /><br />Liberal..Liberal...Liberal ;)
 

Ralph 123

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Re: Presidential address on Irag

To understand the Average American is to let go of every useful lesson life has taught me
Great another would be Philosopher King with nothg but contempt for the "stupid" common people.<br /><br />Some problems really are simple with simple solutions. Note that simple does not mean easy.
 

SCO

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Re: Presidential address on Irag

wvit, <br />Interesting post. All criticism and no answer other than doing nothing or next to nothing. You may think you can avoid making a choice that way, but doing nothing is a choice, one that sends a strong message of fear and weakness. It would say" the Americans cower even when we slap them silly". You're afraid of what they will do to us in retaliation. Be afraid also if we do nothing. When the Saxons were raiding the crumbling Roman empire in England, they just loved that point of view.
 

wvit100

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Re: Presidential address on Irag

I think you all missed the point or maybe you saw the point but cannot fiquer out a coherent response. What exactly did Iraq do to the US that brought on our invasion? Can you answer me that? I'm not talking about Iraq ignoring the UN, that was against the UN. What did they do to the US? Did they attack us in some way? There was no, repeat no, connection between Afganistan and Iraq. The adminstrations link was:<br /><br />Bad guys do bad things<br />Saddam is bad<br />9/11 is bad<br />Saddam must have had something to do with 9/11.<br /><br />I agree we are there now and there is no way out. If we leave then Iraq will turn into a hotbed of terrorism with no government or laws. I'm afraid that we are on the hook for years and who knows how much money. Our administration says that Iraq's oil money will pay us back. How can that be. Iraq's oil industry is expected to produce $18 billion dollars a year when it is up and running. If they paid all of that back to us every year it would take them years and would leave them with no money for their country. The numbers don't add up.<br /><br />Face it, your children will be paying off the debt we are piling up now in Iraq, but I see no way out at this time.
 

Kilgore Trout

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Re: Presidential address on Irag

This is from the Orange County Register in Southern California. Before you go yelling "vast liberal media conspiracy" you have to understand that the Register is very conservative/ libertarian/republican. This is the newspaper that put Richard Nixon, Darrel Issa, Bob Dornan, Dana Rohrbacker, William Dannemyer and other members of the "vast right wing conspiracy" into office.<br /><br /> http://www2.ocregister.com/ocrweb/ocr/article.do?id=56558 <br /><br />Thursday, September 11, 2003 <br /><br />Editorial - Longer-term lessons of 9-11 <br /><br />It's been two full years since al-Qaida operatives turned the United States, the Middle East and most of the civilized world upside down. The attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon were so brazen and breathtaking that they changed the way Americans think about their own safety.<br /><br />It hasn't been long enough to heal, but it has been long enough to reflect on the attacks and on the American government's response.<br /><br />When George W. Bush was elected by the slimmest of margins in such a disputed way, conventional wisdom held that he would be a caretaker president, always struggling with his own legitimacy. During the campaign between Mr. Bush and Al Gore, both men emphasized domestic policy. Pundits concluded that, for the first time since the end of the Cold War, foreign affairs would not dominate the presidency. Then Sept. 11 happened. It was President Bush's defining moment. His legitimacy was unquestioned. Foreign policy became pre-eminent. <br /><br />Some of the policies undertaken by the president and an uncharacteristically unified Congress were necessary. Others were more questionable, albeit understandable in the wake of a national tragedy. Still others were, quite simply, terrible. The war on Iraq, for instance, has immersed the United States in a foreign imbroglio that will continue to claim lives and tax dollars for years or even decades.<br /><br />On Wednesday, the Arabic TV network Al-Jazeera aired a videotape of 9-11 mastermind Osama bin Laden and his deputy. On a separate audio tape, the men were urging Islamic fighters to "bury" American troops stationed in Iraq. It's uncertain if bin Laden really is alive, but U.S. officials seem to think so.<br /><br />As intended, the release of the tapes opens not-yet-healed wounds and reminds Americans, and the Bush administration, of the many unanswered questions and loose ends that remain in the war on terrorism.<br /><br />As we see it, the administration was right to send troops to Afghanistan and displace the Taliban, which was harboring al-Qaida terrorists. There was an obvious target with a clear role in the attacks. Although Afghanistan will long be a financial basket case, American efforts to create a new, non-terrorist- harboring government are in America's national interest. The Afghan people likely will be better off also, although measuring better off in a land of poverty and warlords is a tough task.<br /><br />The war on Iraq, however, was not adequately justified. The Bush administration never made a firm case linking Saddam Hussein's admittedly awful regime with al-Qaida or any terrorists that threatened the United States. The administration relied on spectacularly faulty intelligence or stretched the truth about Saddam's overall threat - or both. The military's inability to find weapons of mass destruction in the months following the war only confirms critics' worst fears.<br /><br />In his speech last Sunday, President Bush called for $87 billion in new funding to help pay for U.S. operations, mainly in Iraq. "This will take time, and require sacrifice. Yet we will do whatever is necessary, we will spend what is necessary to achieve this essential victory in the war on terror."<br /><br />This is what critics predicted would happen.<br /><br />We're even more concerned about the Patriot Act, a hodgepodge of measures that gives the federal government more power to snoop on American residents in the name of protecting the country against terrorism. The dystopian-sounding Department of Homeland Security, with its centralized functions, also troubles us.<br /><br />And the calls for expanding the Patriot Act and the powers of the department keep growing. "President Bush on Wednesday was to call for tougher anti-terrorism legislation to deny bail to terror suspects, expand the death penalty and let investigators bypass grand juries to issue subpoenas," according to a Reuters report.<br /><br />Furthermore, leading Bush administration officials, such as Attorney General John Ashcroft, have refused to take questions from the print media as they have toured the country pitching the benefits of the Patriot Act. Why such fear of tough questions? Administration officials even have complained to Congress that openly expressed concerns about U.S. policy in Iraq bolster America's enemies. This is part of a disturbing tendency by the administration to try to shut down legitimate debate.<br /><br />One of the best ways to honor those who died in the Sept. 11 attacks is to uphold the values of the American democratic system. That means, at the very least, engaging in open, honest and contentious debates about the nation's response to the life-changing events of two years ago. What better time to start that process?
 

JGREGORY

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Re: Presidential address on Irag

Wvit, Let me answer your question with a Question.<br /><br />What exactly Did Hitler do to the United Sates? If we follow your Logic we should have only went to war with Japan, Should not have been in Korea, Vietnam (will grant you that, Grenada, Bosnia, or Kuwait. <br /><br />Some things are more important than international boundries. The fact that Saddam was commiting crimes against humanity means nothing to you? I feel we should not be the worlds policeman. However, no one has the means to do anything about it w/o our help. <br /><br />Maybe we need to remember what complacency brings. 6 millon dead Jews and others, Ethnic cleansing in Bosnia, WTC...<br /><br />Isolationism does not work. All it does is brings us in at a later date with a greater cost.
 

Kilgore Trout

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Re: Presidential address on Irag

Hitler declared war on the United States soon after pearl Harbor.
 

SCO

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Re: Presidential address on Irag

Wvit, I dont agree that they did nothing. You are concluding that they did nothing, there were no WMD, no harboring of terrorists, no terrorist training camps(they had a practice airliner),no sinister plans/associations/motives against the USA, that they(meaning Saddam et al) are victims. Are you sure about that? Maybe all we needed was a good healthy suspicion since the first gulf war probation was revoked due to Saddams non compliance with the terms of surrender. George Schultz said to Charlie Rose on last night's program something like this "if you know someone is planing and preparing to come over and kill your family, are you just going to let them do that?" BTW Trout, that editorial is obviously the screaming liberal viewpoint as it contains the tell tale signiture...stating that GW was not elected legitimately. To all of our credits here on this board, we are engaging in continuous open debate as suggested in the piece.
 
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