Question for you electricians....

[Mark42]

I am re-locating my electric cloths drier from basement to second floor (washer too). My question is this: Can I extend the existing drier circuit or do I have to run all new wire from the breaker to the drier?<br /><br />If I can extend the existing circuit by connecting to the end of the existing wire (10-3) with a junction box, is it OK to connect the 10 gauge wires with the appropriate size wire nuts or is there some other type of mechanical connector to use? I only need to add about 25 feet tops to the existing wire to reach to the new location.<br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />Mark.

 

[sangerwaker]

Re: Question for you electricians....

Did you pull a permit and will it be inspected?<br /><br />You can extend the wires if the junction box will be accesable. Yes, you can use wire nuts.<br /><br />My concern is the wire you mention (10-3). Are you including the ground wire in the 3?

 

[Mark42]

Re: Question for you electricians....

Sangerwaker,<br /><br />In my town no permit is required for homeowner performed electic work, only for contracted work (who thought up that rule??), so no it will not be inspected, but I do want it to meet code.<br /><br />10-3 is the wire designation, it consists of two leads, (red and black), a neutral (white), and a ground.<br /><br />The wire is so darned expensive I decided to extend the old circuit rather than run a whole new one from the breakers to the new location. But I don't like the idea of having a simple wire nut connection in the middle of the run on a high amperage 240v line. Is there a better code sanctioned connection rather than wire nuts?

 

[oddjob]

Re: Question for you electricians....

No on the Wire Nuts! very dangerous especially for 240volts pulling high amps. Use a small buss designed for this task. I doubt that any code would allow that. Big fire hazzard for someone down the road. <br /><br /><br />Sorry to disagree Sangerwaker but I've worked with alot of industry professionals and they brained-washed me. Also repaired alot of equipment that failed or fried due to wire nuts. Eventually they will fail with high current. I use them only on 120v low amp like house hold lamp and lighting. <br /><br />Better to pay more now than later when it comes to electrical.

 

[Mark42]

Re: Question for you electricians....

Oddjob,<br />Can you post a link to a small buss so I know what to look for?<br /><br />Thanks,<br />Mark

 

[sangerwaker]

Re: Question for you electricians....

I sell this stuff every day. I am inside sales at an electrical distributor.<br /><br />The bus bar is a good idea too. There are other mechanical connectors out there. You could use a split bolt and tape well, or any other type of mechanical connector. Ilsco makes some great products that should be available at your local home center or hardware store. Another idea would be to solder and use shrink tube. That would be the most permanent IMO.<br /><br />Wire prices are sky high right now. Raw copper is the highest I have ever seen it.

 

[oddjob]

Re: Question for you electricians....

Mark and Sanger, I stand corrected. Pro says wirenuts are legal. But tape them and place them in a junction box. Better would be a slit-bolt type connection also placed in a junction box. Mark a buss is just a generic term for a junction fixture with more than one teminal to connect. Everything mentioned here can be had at Home Depot.<br /><br />Sorry Sanger You were right..

 

[sangerwaker]

Re: Question for you electricians....

Mark,<br />Look for these if you are not comfortable using the wire nuts. You would need to use splicing (rubber) tape under electrical tape as these are not insulated.<br /><br />You could also try to find an insulated version like these , but they are kinda large and your junction box would have to be rather large, at least an 11B box with possibly an extension. I don't know if you can get these at retail places.

 

[Stumpys]

Re: Question for you electricians....

I was an electrician for years the airport here in KC until I moved up to mangement. <br /><br />Anyway, what is the over all distance you want to run? For example, a 40' run, at 20 amps will require only 16ga. wire, so if your within that distance, you can use the 10ga. with no problems. <br /><br />Also, we use wire nuts on all our airfield circuits, which is 4800 volts. Our street circuits are 240 single phase, which we use them there too. The main this about using wire nuts is to use good ones like Scotchlock and tape them real tight. Also, make sure you twist them real tight!

 

[Mark42]

Re: Question for you electricians....

Ok, Stumpy, I think you said use Scotch Tape and twist it tight, right? <br /><br />Not at home right now, but I think that there are two 30amp breakers feeding that 240 circuit. I know that a crappy connection will get hot, so I was looking for a real secure connection.<br /><br />Thanks for all the food for thought!<br /><br />Mark.

 

[datawire]

Re: Question for you electricians....

Mark - Your plan is just fine. Pull your existing dryer wire to an accessable space, run the end of the wire into a 4" x 4" junction box (screwed to a stud) via a 1/2" "Romex connector". Put the end of your "extension" cable into the junction box - also via a seperate romex connector. Strip and tightly twist the ends of each wire together (color to color). Cut the ends of these splices leaving about 3/4". Tightly screw on either Red or Grey Wire nuts. Shove completed splices into junction box and cover with a blank plate. Perfectly safe - completely legal.<br /><br />Stumpy - If you're splicing 4160 volt circuits with wire nuts, and using 16 ga. wire for 20 amp circuits... please tell what airport I should avoid.

 

[crab bait]

Re: Question for you electricians....

it's funny the electrical advise ya get..<br /><br />we use wire nuts on 480 3 phase..they are legal an UL aproved.. <br /><br />natl.elec. code says 14 gauge = 15 amp breaker.. 12 g. = 20 amp .. 10 g = 30 amp.<br />NO EXCEPTION..<br /><br />scotch locks SUCK..!!!!!!! the worst wire nut ever made.. 60 % they don't lock an if'n they don't lock,, they don't stay on.. <br />they should be illegale.. an no one uses them..<br /><br />get IDEAL tan 'twisters' .. THE BEST NUT MADE..

 

[sangerwaker]

Re: Question for you electricians....

I sell all of the above mentioned wire nuts, and crab bait, you are right. The Ideal tan twisters sell by far the best.

 

[Stumpys]

Re: Question for you electricians....

Datawire.... Crab bait...<br /><br />We do use them on our airfield, which I forgot to mention is on the secondary side of the transformer. Maybe I should have went into great detail... which is not necessary here, and I have never had a burn with them unless the can was under water.<br /><br />Of course everyone has a different opinion on what to use, which to use, and how to use it. The best connection of all is to crimp it then wrap it. <br /><br />Our 4160 volts we use Greenlee crimps, wrap with 130C, then 33, then coat with Scotch Coat. This is because these are fed from constant current regulators. Anyway, out secondary we can use the twist locks on. We have been using them 27 years now.<br /><br />I disagree with what you say about Scotch Locks... Ideal does makes very good ones too! As with all twist locks, as long as they are done right, not exposed to sun light and water, they will work fine. They have to be twisted tight, taped tight! <br /><br />We also use a program from AWG that tells you the wire size needed for how long a run, with what voltage and phase. Or we just use ohm's law. That was just an example I gave him on a 240 single phase circuit. Were not talking breakers here... I mentioned that on a 40 ft run. assuming a 20 amps draw, you can use a 16 ga wire, so it would be safe to use a 10ga, as long as the run was not too much longer.<br /><br />Mark, I assumed you had a 30 amp breaker, but I was not sure what the current draw was from the dryer. What is the total length of the run?

 

[crab bait]

Re: Question for you electricians....

two different worlds.. in house airport an the rest of the world who is governed by the national electric code.. <br /><br />you gotta run at least 14 awg for 15 amp breaker.. 12 for 20 amp an 10 for 30 .. no exceptions.. <br /><br />your method of high voltage ( 4160 ) would not fly either by the NEC.. ( not sayin' your airport is wrong , by it's standards )<br /><br /> scotch locks are plain terriable an should be outlawed an the majority of ibew brothers would agree..

 

[rc581]

Re: Question for you electricians....

crab bait, your right on. and dont forget your derating factor of 80% all said, #10 good for 24 amps.not trying to step on anyones toes here, but #16 ga. barely makes a good ext. cord

 

[rc581]

Re: Question for you electricians....

crab bait, i also should have mentioned its the breaker that takes the rating.[ 80% of 30= 24a.] no way are u putting a 30a. breaker on 16ga wire. in a dwelling.

 

[Mark42]

Re: Question for you electricians....

Stumpy,<br /><br />Total lenght of run is < 60ft. Two 30 amp breakers supply the power. <br /><br />While doing some checking of the circuit pannel, I noticed the two breakers feeding the dryer were hot. So with the mains turned off I removed the cover and found that both the connections to the breakers were loose! I tightened the screws and closed everything back up. Seem to be running cool now. <br /><br />What would make the screw connection on the breaker come loose? Its copper wire on Square D 150 amp service pannel.

 

[sangerwaker]

Re: Question for you electricians....

Please tell me that the 2 30amp breakers are tied together with a handle tie, or will trip together. That could be a problem.<br /><br />As for the loose connection, got me. With copper wire it is actually uncommon to have the connections loosen, although it does happen more frequently with aluminum wire if not properly installed.

 

[Stumpys]

Re: Question for you electricians....

I do understand what your saying crab bait, but we are not governed by anyone, because the city owns the airports here. All airfield connectors are made by Siemens that we use, so I guess they are wrong for making them. We also deal with inground cans that take on water. This means that all connections have to be wrapped many times, then sealed. This goes for all street circuits too! They too are all in cans that are in the ground. Anything underground, even in conduit, has to be done the same way, at least here. <br /><br />As a matter of fact, a huge electrical company (Capitol Electric) does all our new installation. We spend most of the time fixing thier (blank) ups. No one here to govern what they do either. It is a shame! Anyhow, our way of doing things have worked over the last 30 years with no problems. With constant current regulators, I think you know what they are capable of doing to someone if you have a bad connection or burn. <br /><br />As I said, all electricians have thier own way of doing things. I think it is great that we all learn how others do it, and we may even pick up on something new. Our electricians go to Siemens every year for training. Airport electrical that is! <br /><br />A simple NEC DOS program we use for length, voltage, voltage drop, and wire size. As in Marks case, a 60 ft run at 240 volts single phase, no conduit, (hypothetically) using 20 amps??? draw (I know that is high) would = 14ga wire. Mark simply ask if his 10ga would work, and yes it would work fine depending on the factors. I pretty sure I never said to change over to a 16ga wire! Its just a reference, to make a point on how voltage/ current ratios work to wire size.<br /><br />As for the IBEW brothers.... Maybe they have different views there. Ours use both types of twist locks.<br />I also know the ratios on breakers/wire size, and I would also never recommend using anything outside of the NEC. <br /><br />Mark... I'm backing off this issue. Thanks for the post.