Quick Rant

[swimmin' for shore]

It probably won't turn out quick, but I do have a rant tonight. Maybe just to get it out of my system.<br />The worst thing about being cost conscious and rebuilding boats is that you set your mind on saving money that you've worked so hard for. After all, someone has to put most of us on a budget. Sometimes it's ourselves. Sometimes a spouse. The less I spend on....a hardtop, the more I have for stainless handles, hinges, etc...the less I spend on that, the more I can spend on...disappearing rope. Whatever. You get the point.<br />Now, the problem with setting out to save money is that big business doesn't care whether you want to save money or not. They don't want to deal with the guy working out of his garage at home. I'm so fed up, tonight, with not having my calls or emails returned. I don't care if any of the thousand gasket companies out there like dealing with my need for 20' of rubber gasket or not. If you have a "customer service" division, the "customer" should realistically be able to expect answers to their questions. <br />These people don't just write me back to tell me to go to Ace Hardware and spend 4 times the money. They just don't write. It leaves you wondering how any of them have managed to stay in business at all! <br />Don't let me make all of this seem negative. I've found some great companies out there, with great prices, and great service. I have a whole list of companies that I've saved-companies that have been what you hope for when you go through this. These are the kinds of companies who send you samples, even though you're unlikely to spend more than 50 bucks with them(at least not on THIS project). What I'm upset about is that every doggone time I need something new, this is what I have to go through. I have to email or call 17,000 different distributors of the particular product, wait 4 or 5 days while 16,999 of them ignore me, and HOPE that one turns out to be right. It's not just on the internet, either. It's in every one of our home towns. I call or email everyone in town who can bend pipe(my hardtop) because I want the best deal possible. I figure that most of these guys are going to return my query. Even they, though, who specialize in what I'm looking for, fail to return calls, and when they do return calls, they don't follow through. <br />Someday, I'm going to make something more of myself. I'm not going to be some guy who rebuilds old boats in his garage. Maybe I'll rebuild boats. Maybe I'll fix motors. Maybe I'll sell ice cream cones at the North Pole. I swear, though, that if that day ever comes, I won't get too big to remember that there was a time when I made my living off of people who worked out of their garage!<br />In order to qualify this for this forum, let me add that my email address is in my profile. If you have companies that you've gone through in the past who provide the kind of service we all value so greatly, please email them to me anytime. I have a whole list that each and every one of you are welcome to, and you need only ask.

 

[DangerDan]

Re: Quick Rant

Perhaps you could try a muffler shop to bend your tubing for your hard top. I fabricated one myself and had the necessary tools at work. All the same the bending was just a small part of the project. It's worth a try.

 

[Rick K]

Re: Quick Rant

I sometimes feel the same way. I need some cushions made. Now one would think that with all the waterways, marinas, shops, etc., we have in western ny, that ONE LOUSY PLACE could make up 4 LOUSY BOAT CUSHIONS. The latest was "we only do standard sizes". WHAT THE $%^^& IS A STANDARD SIZE???? Heck, all I want is 4 cushions, 14x54x3.<br /><br />Heck, I'll even pay good money for them too! <br /><br />I have a few places that I deal with that provide EXCELLENT service, and I will go to them and maybe pay a bit more before giving some mass merchandiser (walmart, gander mountain, west, boatus) my money. At least with a local business, the money stays right in town. And, when I have an off the wall question, or need some crazy part, the small business guy will be right there to help out.<br /><br />Why some places think they can get premium dollar for everyday boat stuff is beyond me.<br /><br />Sorry, but I had to jump in on this rant too.<br /><br />rick

 

[MathewsMan]

Re: Quick Rant

I am definately on board with this rant. I have major problems where I live here in Beaufort SC. We are surrounded by water!! Its everywhere and there are a ton of boats! However, there are just a few boat supply places in town. None of them are anything to look at either. Each has about 3-4 shelves with some miscellaneous everyday stuff on them....but not much of an inventory if you ask me. <br /><br />"Hey, do you happen to have one of these?" <br /><br />"No, but we can get it on order for you"<br /><br />Well woopidy-doo!!! Every Joe-Blow with a computer can order the stupid thing themselves! Most likley at a better price than the 30% mark-up youre nailing me with!<br /><br />I can assure you also that ALMOST EVERTHING YOU NEED WILL HAVE TO BE ORDERED.<br /><br />I have likened living here to that scene in the movie Oh Brother whre art thou. The one whe he want a part for a Ford...but they gotta order it..it'll take 2 weeks. He wants hair gel but its gonna take 2 weeks....<br /><br />Geographical oddity.....2 Weeks from everywhere!!<br /><br /><br />While ranting about the cost: I have all but ceased to buy anything at all from local businesses. I pretty much orer most everything I can wait on from the internet. When are local shops gonna realize they don't compete with the other shop accross town??? They are in compettintion with the whole country now since the internet thing has taken off.<br /><br />I need a master cylinder for my boat trailer. Local guy tried to tell me it was gonna run me 85 bucks! I looked it up online and found 30 places that all sold them for around 45!! <br /><br />I went back on a special trip to tell him this and kindly told him if he expected to stay in business he better get with the program....otherwise all the local business is going to be going ONLINE and he'll have to close up. I explained that ordering the part from him would be the same as ordering the part online and drving by one day and handing him 30.00 to boot! Which is essentially what I would be doing. "Here ya go....heres 30 bucks....have a nice day."<br /><br />I could go on and name a thousand examples of the same stuff. I don't know how they stay in business.<br /><br /><br />MathewsMan

 

[swimmin' for shore]

Re: Quick Rant

My mood is better tonight. My stainlss steel supplier has done such a good job of coming through, that they're making it hard for me to continue "ranting". We had a problem with my credit card(me putting in the wrong numbers), and they emailed me 3 times until we got it straight. This, for 87 dollars worth of hinges, handles, etc...It was nice to see some good service for a change. <br />MM, I have to agree with your point about companies that are going to have a hard time staying in business if they can't find a way to compete with the online stores. The sad thing about this is that I would honestly prefer to go to my local marina to buy everything I use. I don't even mind paying a few dollars more. I'm not going to pay a 200% markup, though. We have a local marina here. I went down there to price some things out. They wanted 19.95 for a stainless steel handle. I bought the doggone things online today for 4.52 apiece. The shipping on them cost me another 2 bucks. I can't ignore that kind of price, and I surely can't ignore the fact that it was easier to get service online than it was to go down to the store and wait half an hour for someone who really doesn't know anything about their product. <br />DangerDan-Re: Hardtop. This is a whole other rant. I knew that I was on a budget. I looked everywhere for them. The aluminum pipe, 2" schedule 40, is about 350 dollars for the job. The problem I've had is that I know what it takes. This is my industry in the Navy. I understand the bends, what they take. I understand the tig welding process. I don't have the equipment to do it at home, but being cost-conscious, I took the time to draw everything out, and even figure out the bend radius on each curve. I've been to a couple of shops. I always ask what they charge hourly, and we have always come to a quote of about 800 dollars start to finish. I'm guessing here, but what then happens is that they find out what the "marina" charges to do this kind of work. The marinas usually think they're smart. They don't give you an hourly rate. They just quote the whole job to people who don't know any better. By the time it's done, you're probably paying 200 dollars an hour. With the right equipment, it just isn't that much of a job. As soon as they realize that they could get more money for this from most people, they either call me back with a NEW QUOTE that is 2 to 3 times as much, or they just don't call me at all. For one small company, I got up on a Saturday morning, hooked up the boat trailer, and drove 50 miles in the rain. Then, I waited around until they showed up, we measured out the job and came to about 800 dollars, and I drove all the way home. To have them come back and say they have now decided that it'll take at least 1800 dollars is a colossal waste of my time, and I resent the poor service. For 1800 bucks, I can buy a small bender from harbor freight and a decent tig welder and do the job myself. Because of other similar situations, I now have a sandblaster, huge air compressor, and a thousand other tools that I'll rarely use. I just can't see the point of paying so much for work that doesn't take that long. With this particular project, I really don't want to buy more equipment. My answer might be to have each part done totally independent of the others. I can have a muffler shop bend the pipe, maybe. Then, I can go to a sheet metal shop and have them roll the actual top over, and I can take the whole thing to a small welding shop and have them weld it together. Then, maybe none of them realize that they're building something for the ever expensive BOAT, and I can get some quality work with honest pricing. I can't figure out why everything attached to the "marine" industry has to be twice as much as everything else. We covered this over in one of the talks about epoxy paint. Epoxy paint wasn't originally intended for boats, but it works great for our uses. It started as an industrial coating, often used on machinery, floors, and other steel. Some enterprising companies in the "marine" industry jumped on the bandwagon, put "marine" in front of the words "epoxy paint" and charge twice as much. Go figure. <br />Enough ranting for one night. LOL. Thanks for the replies. I'm feeling better already.

 

[CalicoKid]

Re: Quick Rant

Well if it helps Swimmin', an electrical contractor in your area might have a hydraulic bender and be willing to bend up your pipe for you. Look for one who does industrial type work mainly.

 

[MathewsMan]

Re: Quick Rant

Ditto on the charging double for "Marine Products". Its a snow-job from the word GO!<br /><br />I, like you, have a knack for just about all things mechanical. I pretty much do all the work I need done myself. Because of this I also have a garage full of tools.<br /><br />My thinking on that is basically this: Why pay some guy to do something for me just because he has the tools to do it, when by the time I pay him for it I could have gone out and bought my own tools and done it myslef.<br /><br />Case in point, I blew up my outboard last weekend. I could have taken the boat to the shop and paid them thier 70.00 and hour to troubleshoot it. Even though I already had a good idea what was wrong. The mech would have taken a compression gage to it and charged me 150.00 by the time he was through "Troubleshooting". So I went and bout a 40.00 compression gage and did it myself. I may or may not use that compression gage again....but rest assured, if I ever need to...its there. Plus I did the same thing they would have done for way less!!<br /><br />After years of doing this type of stuff I now have enough tools to pretty much open my own engine shop or custom fabrication shop.....heck...I'm my own paint booth as well. <br /><br />Mathewsman

 

[JustMrWill]

Re: Quick Rant

I agree with everything being said on thie rant. I wanted a friggin lock nut - West Marine $5 each, Boaters World $3 each local hardware store $.15...the exact same friggin nut!!! My theory on their "justification" for the inflated prices is that boats are "luxury" items...if you can afford to own one then you can afford to pay 200% mark-up. Arrghhh!<br /><br />I wanted some work done on my engine last year...called 3 different boat shops in area...2 would call me back (never did) 1 said that they where booked for atleast 2 months...just ended up doing it myself.<br /><br />Atleast my wife has bought into the "it's cheaper for me to buy than rent or outsource" mindset. Finishing my basement and all it took was for me to give her the $37,000 quote from the Owens-Corning basement finishers...and the new air compressor, nail gun and any other "specialty" tool doesn't seem so bad .<br /><br />-JMW

 

[MathewsMan]

Re: Quick Rant

My wife is a little less understanding I think. She knows of course that everything I have to do to the boat is done for as cheap it it is possible. But that doesn't change the fact that it cost $$$.<br /><br />I guess she is of the usual spousal mindset: You get in and turn the key"<br /><br />No thought into what it takes to keep it running or any of that stuff. <br /><br />The boat has been a money pit so far as she is concerned so hearing the motor was blown sealed that thinking in her mind. <br /><br />Right now I am trying to fgure out if its best to just buy a nearly new motor or try to rebuild it myself. Just the pistons, rings and gaskets, all as one in a set is 1000.00. But whats to say I don't put it all together and a year from now it pops again. My experience is "Re-built" is never as good "New". So, I'm not sure what to do with this one. I would like nothing more than to hang a motor on it that I know is good to go just so I don't have to worry about it. If I rebuild it...I'll always be second guessing the reliability. I know I am compentent enough to rebuild it...thats not the question. I know how to read after all. But its not like I build boat motors for a living, so I don't have experience on my side.<br /><br />NOt sure what to do.<br /><br />MM

 

[swimmin' for shore]

Re: Quick Rant

Well, I'll be shorter on my end of this rant this morning. <br />Will, I know how you feel. That was my point in the beginning of this little rant-for anyone who is conscious of materials cost, as most of us must be, the day we bought that first boat also marked the day that we had to scrimp, save, plan, price shop, and engineer everthing we would ever do to it. I honestly don't mind spending some money on my boat(s). They are a luxury item because I don't HAVE to have them. Nevertheless, it goes back to what I originally said. I want every possible luxury in my boat-led lights that use up less battery, stainless steel hinges and handles, decent upholstery, gauges, and so forth. In order to do that, I do a lot of engineering. I build a lot of things in my garage. I do as much of my own work as possible. I call around. The point to all this is that every business owner we call went through the same things to stay in business over the years. They scrimped, saved, price-shopped, took lots of tylenol, and stuck with it. Why is it that they get to this point where they've become too big for the average guy, the same guy that they once were? It confuses me, and I just don't see it as a good way to stay in business. <br />There's something good to be said, here, about iboats. You know, it's nice to have come here and share ideas, headaches, triumphs, etc...with so many like-minded people. Without this forum, I don't think I'd have gotten through the first boat, and certainly wouldn't be where I am right now. This has been a great place to share, and I appreciate you guys putting up with my rant. <br />MM-I feel your pain, man. Be careful with the wife. I guess that I'd rebuild the motor if I felt like I could do it. Despite your nice comment about me being "mechanical minded", I'm really not. Motors still get to me. Half of the things I work on still confuse me. 12 volt wiring is a nightmare. Sometimes, you have to just jump into it and learn as you go, but a thousand dollar rebuild kit is an expensive thing to learn on. You might look for a match to your motor on ebay that has a bad lower unit or something. If you do that, you'll always have a parts motor, I suppose. <br />Talk to you guys later.

 

[kfraser]

Re: Quick Rant

Well said everyone. Here are two recent experiences for me. I had been looking for a control box for a mercury outboard on a boat that I had been restoring and stopped in at one of the only boat shops we have here 70 miles south of St. Louis. This one happens to have a boat graveyard of sorts in the back. Picture the scene: Three good ole boys sittin round shootin the _hit. After five minutes of me standing there waiting for them to finish long enough to take a breath, I get a "What do you want." I asked if he might have a shifter control box in an old boat in the graveyard and the answer was "Might". OK.....how much do you think you'd want for one. "$300 bucks". Wow..thats kinda high, they sell for about $169 new on the internet. (iboats, Part# B183). "Bull_hit!, I can't even get em for that!!!" Sure ya can...just log on and you can buy em all day long. "Well, I guess maybe you otta just buy one off that thar internet then!" Here's my point of this one. I went in there prepared to spend MY money. He felt like I was in there bothering them. <br /><br />On the flip side of this coin is OPC Marine in Imperial MO. It's about 30 miles from me. I had just gotten my new project boat and hadn't gotten a service manual yet. I wanted to confirm the firing order as the num's were ground off the intake. I called OPC and asked if they could help. "No problem!" The owner had every guy in the shop searching all of their manuals. It took them atleast 15 minutes to find the answer and he kept coming back to me on the phone, thinking I was getting upset it was taking so long. He gave me the info I needed and told me that if I had any more questions, don't hesitate to give them a call. I didn't know these poeple and had never shopped there before......I do now!<br /><br />I guess there are good ones, bad ones, price gougers, and ones that make a fair profit to keep the doors open. Just have to find the right ones...