R.I.P. Dan Wheldon

[QC]

Re: R.I.P. Dan Wheldon

Believe me, I do understand what you and others are saying, I really do but at some point you have to accept danger of death and serious injury are part of of racing and truth be told, if it wasn't many drivers wouldn't bother.

Agree with that, and not coming close to arguing that . . . but . . .

Ability to see. As a driver do I really want a blind spot in front of me at 200+ MPH and an inch between me and the next car?

But not that . . . why does an additional, or extended roll bar over and around the head (helmet) necessarily mean the driver can't see? As long as the bar or cage is outside the limitations of the helmet visibility, then I still don't get it.

I can't find a good example. But why not a smaller version of this:

 

[bassman284]

Re: R.I.P. Dan Wheldon

OK, we can have unlimited technology races on one end of the spectrum and M1A1's on the other. But there are still legitimate cost and safety limitations in almost all types of racing, so it seems that this is still an appropriate discussion. Your point is understood Bubba, but does not seem to eliminate possible changes . . .

I am actually serious and curious. I have been confused about this forever. Why is the exposed head required? Why not a roll bar in front of the head as well as behind? Someone enlighten me please.

Well, QC, there actually is a roll bar in front of the head. It's the part of the chassis above the dash area. The plane between that surface and the top of the rear roll bar (actually the air duct) is required to be a certain distance above the driver's head. I know that distance is 40mm in Formula 1 but I don't know what it is for Indy Car. That is sufficient for rollovers but clearly not quite enough when a car goes top first into the catch fence.

Last year an the Indy 500 Mike Conway was passing Ryan Hunter-Reay in turn 3 on lap 199. RHR ran out of fuel and slowed and Conway made wheel-to-wheel contact and went airborn. He flipped ver 360 deg in the air and hit the catch fence upright and nose first. He had sever injuries to his legs and back, but was back racing this year.

Lipp, I guess I could have said "survivability" rather than safety. I guess we get thinking they are the same thing sometimes. I agree that high bank ovals are totally inappropriate for these cars, regardless of length. It leads to flat out pack racing where the slightest twitch by anybody can lead to disaster.

 

[LippCJ7]

Re: R.I.P. Dan Wheldon

Guys I think your missing my point here, I am not saying that driver safety is an issue as much as I am saying that IndyCar nearly had 3(race cars) million dollar race cars doing 200MPH+ flying into the stands filled with spectators. Drivers assume the risk everytime they sit in a race car, end of story they have no one else to blame for their own death but themselves, my concern is that if this wreck had happened in a straight where most spectators sit this would have probably ended IndyCar, the death toll would have been horrible. Watching the video over and over of the three cars taking off like rockets, thank god it happened where it did. Just one of those cars going over the fence is unimaginable.

Inherently going that speed on a tight 1.5 mile race course isn't wise in my opinion, IndyCar has a problem, trying to compete with NASCAR which really is a Elephant\Mouse fight.

Unless IndyCar slows the cars dramatically there is no reason to race them on anything smaller then a 2 mile oval, its just too dangerous

As I said before the death of Dan Wheldon is sad but the bigger picture the way I see it is that this had better get IndyCar's attention, they dodged a bullet having this horrible wreck happen in a banked turn where the fence caught all the cars before they had enough room to gain more altitude and clear the fence. Keep in mind that the fence in the straights is lower then in the banking, as well as typically you have higher speeds in the straights then you will have in the turns with very few exceptions. I have never seen cars take off like they did Sunday, I heard many drivers state afterward it was like watching a movie and that's a very accurate statement, it was like watching a movie.

 

[QC]

Re: R.I.P. Dan Wheldon

You suggest a longer track and maybe there is a merit in that but I suspect the end result will be faster cars.

One solution is flatter tracks. Same issue in NASCAR. Long plus high banked equals speeds above 200. And that's where airborne goes from exciting to somebody's lap . . .

 

[joed]

Re: R.I.P. Dan Wheldon

Safety debate sucks, but is inevitable. What has never made sense to me is the exposed head, seems like a solution is possible . . .

They solved the issue in hydroplane racing with fighter jet cockpit bubbles. Maybe solved isn't the right word but reduced the hazards at least.

 

[LippCJ7]

Re: R.I.P. Dan Wheldon

Yeah but a cockpit will not work in car racing, steel versus plexiglass is a simple equation. Indy cars are downforce factories, the amount of air they push off the wings and bodies is incredible so why not reduce the allowable square footage of wing surface? reduced downforce means they cannot go into the turns as fast and there for reduce turn speeds. Another idea would be to introduce negative pressure flaps in the body so that when a car does take to the air it cannot generate enough lift to go to far, both are ideas from NASCAR but they have merit here. I have been told that Indy Cars actually suck down to the ground somewhat so the negative pressure flaps may eliminate that possibility but so what? I agree that its time to enclose the cockpit but plexiglass and carbon fiber is simply not strong enough laterally nor in shock situations for it to be considered a safety improvement. When Denver Mullins brought F-16 fighter cockpits to hydro's he had multiple issues, the sanctioning body began to require drivers to wear seatbelts, (funny for hydros but trust me we used to see drivers fall out on a weekend basis at over 100MPH when the boat started chine walking!) anyway drivers were rendered unconscious and then drowning, the cockpit was the perfect answer even though it claimed Denver's life.

Coroner report states Wheldon died from Blunt force trauma to the head, Jimmy Johnson also stated that IndyCar should not be racing at smaller oval tracks, I still come to the possibility that IndyCar should stop racing at smaller oval tracks or slow the cars down which means costs will go up more. With Danica making the move to NASCAR next year maybe all of this will solve itself, who knows.

I hear ya Bubba and truth be known I have never been a fan of open wheel racing outside of Outlaws but I know some that are, NASCAR saw the reality that a car could possibly clear the fence and they stopped it immediately negative pressure flaps were instituted mid season, I know that initially the fear was for the driver to get killed but I can't remember a NASCAR wreck as scary as what I saw at Las Vegas Sunday and I have been watching NASCAR for 30 years, The car always stays together, the front and rear clip may come off as designed but the center section is always intact. By contrast the carnage Sunday was unbelievable. I'm not sure how several drivers didn't die

Scary stuff

 

[GA_Boater]

Re: R.I.P. Dan Wheldon

Indy Car is on it's last legs and this may hasten the end. They can't fill the race field or the stands except for the Indy 500. The $5M special purse was too attract more drivers and Wheldon didn't meet the criteria but Indy Car gave him a pass because he is or was a past 500 winner. Tony George ruined the sport by breaking away from CART and forming the IRL. All this is neither here nor there, A young man died on Sunday and two kids won't have Daddy coming home. It is ironic that Dan Wheldon was the prime test driver of the next generation of Indy Car, which is supposed to be a safer car, if an open wheel car can truly be safe.

 

[WIMUSKY]

Re: R.I.P. Dan Wheldon

Majority of crashes come from the rear per the Indy car website. Alot of attention was given to protecting the drivers in such crashes. Whenever you have open wheel cars, especially Indy style, when wheels touch, the guy coming in hot from the rear is launched. Slow the cars down and he may not launch quite as far, maybe..

Here's an intersting article about 2012:
http://www.indycar.com/news/show/55-izod-indycar-series/38526/

Here's some pics of the Dallara concept car:
http://indycar.com/multimedia/photos/6277-2012-indycar-unveiling/

Protect the rear wheel and the lauchings should be minimal.....

BTW, NASCAR doesn't sellout either, anymore.... They still have more in attendance than the IRL tho. Danica will be good PR for NASCAR. Don't know how long it will last because I don't see her being very successful. I would like to see her do very well. Just not feelin' it.....

 

[JB]

Re: R.I.P. Dan Wheldon

I really don't approve of blame games after a tragedy. Perfect safety cannot be achieved without boring spectators to death.

Indycar safety, compared to 20-30 years ago, is unbelievably improved.

Leave it alone. They know what they are doing and they do it better than anyone in the world.

 

[LippCJ7]

Re: R.I.P. Dan Wheldon

I agree JB and I hope you understand that my intent was not to lay blame but to discuss what can be done to make racing safer for all involved but predominately the spectators, racers know the dangers long before they strap in, I know that in the racing I am involved in with Super Late Models Safety is first and foremost with all involved yet we all know tragedies can still happen

 

[JB]

Re: R.I.P. Dan Wheldon

I wasn't aiming the post at you, specifically, LippCJ7, but this thread was intended to memorialize Dan, not to point fingers at "causes" . . . .excuse me, crashes.

Neither you nor I, in our motor racing adventures, were as safe as Dan was.

Not since Al Jr hung up his helmet was there a finer competitor or a more admirable gentleman..

 

[LippCJ7]

Re: R.I.P. Dan Wheldon

Completely agree with you, it is sad that sometimes it takes a tragedy to spark or force the hand of racing's governing bodies but with all the technology and in some cases those that are deliberately bending the rules(NASCAR teams) I can clearly see how hard it can be to stay a step or two in front of both.

I don't blame anyone for Dan's death, I believe it was simply his time.

 

[cribber]

Re: R.I.P. Dan Wheldon

RIP Dan Wheldon and hope the lessons learned from this tragedy are brought forward to make Indy Car Racing safer. F1 went through this with Ayrton Senna, NASCAR did the same with Dale E. It was a tragic accident and they need to see how it happened and do what they can to reduce this risk...