Rebuilt Merc 454 question,

goodnuss

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I ad two 454 Merc V drive bored to 496cu in. We alsostroked the engines. They are in a pleasure 39' 16,000# boat.<br /><br />Engines ran very well but we are using 1t oil every 5-6 hours per engine. Before the rework there was no oil usage to speak of. I have two concerd.<br />1. I believe to Piston (Alum) and Rings (Moly) were properly installed. However the engines were never put under a high load for any time EXCEPT when coming out of the holes.<br /><br />2. There has been a question raised about the stroked engines and the oil pan arrangement. There were no modifications made but with the V drive having a higher proformance engine do there need to be modifications to the oil pan to insure there is no oil thrown up into the cylinders?<br /><br />I would appreciate any insite someone might on how to solve the oil usage question.
 

mkast

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Re: Rebuilt Merc 454 question,

How many hours are on the engines now?<br />It is not uncommon for oil usage to be high for the first 25 to 50 hrs. If both engines are like this, do a cylinder leak down test. If engine hours are over 100, start looking at the specs used to assemble these engines. You didn't use synthetic oil for breakin did you?
 

Bondo

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Re: Rebuilt Merc 454 question,

On #1, I think You're Right...... Take it out,+ Run It............<br /><br />#2, What sort of a base arrangement did it have Before the rebuild ????<br />I can see where you might want a oil baffle, or windage tray, or Maybe even a reversed sump base,+ extended oil pump pick-up..........<br /><br />I don't see many V-drives........
 

goodnuss

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Re: Rebuilt Merc 454 question,

Mike M2 I do not believe the rings were overlaped
 

Bondo

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Re: Rebuilt Merc 454 question,

goodnuss, How About ????<br />
How many hours are on the engines now?<br />You didn't use synthetic oil for breakin did you?<br />If both engines are like this, do a cylinder leak down test. Is It Both ? <br />What sort of a base arrangement did it have Before the rebuild ???? What's Different between Old,+ New ??
A few of These Answers will Help........
 

goodnuss

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Re: Rebuilt Merc 454 question,

Bondo<br /><br />The engines were stock 454 Merc (1989)Rochester Q 4 carb. Drive V bore Warner. Never had operationasl problems. No Oil usage. Prot engine kept loosing RPM at WOT and was doggy. Thus I decieded to have the engines overhauled apprx 1200hrs.<br /><br />At that time I look to get more torque. The engine rebuilder stroked the engines and bore to 496.<br /><br />Rebuilt engines ran great. Great proformance improvement to.<br /><br />One engone ran lean blow hole in 2 pistons #5&6 Std rotation engine.(STB) Engines were using 40 W oil and consuming about 1 qt every 7-10hrs.<br /><br />Engines were rebuilt after the problem. 1. Primary jet on carbs opened .05. After the engines were reinstalled I have put 35 hrs on them. They run great. Fuel consumption down by 25% running at approx 3800RPM. However oil usage up to 1 qt per 5 hours approx. To the best knowledge everyone including the rebuilder everything was done connectly. Thet has been expressed concern that do to the V drive and stroked engine the oil pan is to stallow and causing oil to be slung up into the cylinders. Std mgr pan is still on the engines.<br /><br />Also had oil test samples run at 32 hrs. 1. Viscosity dropped by 40% with some Alum and iron present. Also has flash point test run and it showed some gas in the oil. There has been a leak teat also run now that the engines are now out of the boat. It showed minor leakage.<br /><br />I am looking for any input that will allow us to be sure we are doing the right things to fix the oil usage problem. It it just rings not seating or does the oil pan need to be modified because of the stroked engine setting in backwards.<br /><br />This is about all I can tell you. Hope you can make something out of it and lead me in the right direction.
 

mkast

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Re: Rebuilt Merc 454 question,

I had an MIE 330 hp that came stock with a windage tray that was mounted to the main cap bolts. If you are getting oil aerated, you should be able to pull the dip stick out while under way and see foam on the stick.
 

jimmythekid

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Re: Rebuilt Merc 454 question,

synthetic oil in a brand new engine is a no no<br />FOMOCO will void the warranty on any Triton engine if Synthetic oil is used within the first 30,000 miles, (or so i am told)<br />Moly rings need an "aggresive" cross hatch to seat, as well as some good hard runs<br /><br />give her some good runs, hard runs, just don't let the rpms get to high, let them babys break in, <br /><br />If they were mine :( i wouldnt worry to much until they had at least 100 hrs on them, unless they were smoking and smelling bad (not good)<br /><br />oil viscosity drop = gas in oil, as indicated by analysis<br /><br />alum and iron in oil, not uncommon to have "break in materials" in brand new engine, engine oil unless excessive as indicated by analysis<br /><br />sounds like to me you may not have let them break in long enough, or the wrong break in procedure for moly rings which are known to be hard too break in. I like good old fashioned cast iron rings myself. At least in the numerous car/truck/ nitrous injected 25hp kohler engines ive done. :) I haven't done a boat engine yet, but the keywords<br />are Boat and YET :) <br /><br />after all the oil consumption did come down from original (before rebuild) correect?<br /><br />I used to work for CSX railroad, they used to do ALOT of oil analysis. Everything from ATF, HYD, engine oil, blower oil, Air compressore oil you name it they anaylized it. I am sure I will get some flames for this but... I think oil analysis is a waste of money, for a few reasons, if ya all want hear them let me know. (besides its a better argument than 5w30 vs 10w30) hee hee :)
 
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Re: Rebuilt Merc 454 question,

jimmythekid, <br /><br />I'd sure like to hear why you think oil analysis is a waste of money. I wondered the same thing after I paid a marine surveyor to check out a boat I was looking to purchase. After telling me that he prefers oil analysis to compression checks I take his word for it as a certified surveyor. He does the whole survey thing complete with engine oil and transmission fluid analysis. Then we sit down to go over the report and he tells us that really doen't tell you much unless you do it regularly over a longer period of time. :confused: <br /><br />My thoughts at receiving his report? So I spent an extra 90.00 for you to tell me nothing? :mad:
 

jimmythekid

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Re: Rebuilt Merc 454 question,

Originally posted by jonmac:<br /> jimmythekid, <br /><br />I'd sure like to hear why you think oil analysis is a waste of money. I wondered the same thing after I paid a marine surveyor to check out a boat I was looking to purchase. After telling me that he prefers oil analysis to compression checks I take his word for it as a certified surveyor. He does the whole survey thing complete with engine oil and transmission fluid analysis. Then we sit down to go over the report and he tells us that really doen't tell you much unless you do it regularly over a longer period of time. :confused: <br /><br />My thoughts at receiving his report? So I spent an extra 90.00 for you to tell me nothing? :mad:
no doubt, hows an oil analysis gonna tell you if youve got a low cylinder on compression? I change my oil regularly, and when it breaks I fix it. Nothing man made lasts forever. Even if you do it over along period of time, at 90 bucks a pop,that can add up quick. Even so by the time it shows up a problem, your engine has a problem, the damage is already done, and needs to be fixed. Duh :) <br /><br />CSX Railroad anylized every lubricant for every piece of equipment at every oil change WITHOUT FAIL. I've seen them replace several perfectly running cummins 4bt and 6bt engines for no apparent reason. I am sure they got a discount rate on the analysis's but they had a tremendous amount of them, the money saved by not doing the analysis, could have bought a few new pieces of equipment I am sure.<br /><br />Unless you have something that simply CANNOT breakdown, like an aircraft engine, which are rebuilt at a specified time whether it needs it or not anyway. Its a waste of money IMHO<br /><br />On a boat survey it might be worth it, just because you don't know how it was kept up by the last owner, and an analysis can give some indication of impending trouble. Which might be good or bad depending on how you look at it :) <br /><br />Probably used alot in Engine R&D when experimenting with new materials, to see how they are holding up
 

Bondo

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Re: Rebuilt Merc 454 question,

goodnuss,<br /><br />I'm truly Sorry...............<br /><br />I did a little looking... As I stated before, I don't get to play with V-drives very often......<br />What I did find was that it appears that a V-drive Engine Should have a reversed base.... sump towards the stern, with an extended oilpump pick up tube running to the bottom of the sump.....<br /><br />If you still think the crank is slapping the sump oil, Run it a Qt. Low.... Is it Foaming ?? it should be visible on the dip stick Shortly after shut down, or even check it when running........<br /><br />I googled V-Drive,+ Not only found Mucho Parts, but a few personal websites with pic.s......<br /><br />Also, Venture over Here.... ,+ ask your questions at that forum.....<br />Granted, the Guys there Don't run a V-drive the way you do, But They'll have the answers to Your Questions.........<br />There are the Usual Know-It-Alls, But, There's Also some Very Serious Talent that frequents that forum..........<br /> <br />Again,... I'm Sorry..... I didn't mean to leave you hanging.......<br /><br />I don't see anything in your buildup that would be a problem in itself....<br />The Extended Stroke is about 1/4", .250thousandths.... This Shouldn't be the Cause of the problem....<br />Adding a Windage Tray Might Help....<br /><br />" now that the engines are now out of the boat."<br />As for whether the Rings Have, or will seat is abit of a Problem with the motor Out of the boat..... It's not like you can take it out,+Run it Hard......Unless it's set up on a Dyno......<br />If your engine builder wants to take the chance on reinstalling the motor, That's His Call, at this point.......<br /><br />If the motor was still in the boat,<br />I believe that a Hard Run by itself Might seal the rings......<br />If Not, There's the Old "Bon-Ami" method...... And, It Works Very Well........... <br /><br />Good Luck.........And, Keep Us Posted....... ;)
 
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Re: Rebuilt Merc 454 question,

Originally posted by jimmythekid:<br />
Originally posted by jonmac:<br /> jimmythekid, <br /><br />On a boat survey it might be worth it, just because you don't know how it was kept up by the last owner, and an analysis can give some indication of impending trouble. Which might be good or bad depending on how you look at it :) <br /><br />Probably used alot in Engine R&D when experimenting with new materials, to see how they are holding up
Thanks --- I guess $90 would have been cheap compared to purchasing a boat with some serious engine issues.<br /><br />Jonmac
 

goodnuss

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Re: Rebuilt Merc 454 question,

Bondo Thanks for the insite. I would like to know how much Bon Ami would be used and where to add it if it becomes necessary to try. I would assume you should changethe oil after doing this as well. Appreciate you input.
 

Bondo

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Re: Rebuilt Merc 454 question,

I would like to know how much Bon Ami would be used and where to add it if it becomes necessary to try.
Busting the Cylinder Glaze with Bon-Ami is done by running the motor till it's Well Warmed,......<br />In Neutral, run it up to 2000/2500rpms,+ Sprinkle about a Tablespoon of Bon-Ami into the Air Flow above the Carb.......<br />The Whole Tablespoon should last 3 to 5 seconds, from the time you start sprinkling, till it's Gone.............<br />After running the motor another 20/50hrs,+ Checking the results, If Nessessary, Do It Again............<br />If the Second Shot Doesn't Fix it, There are Other Problems............<br /><br />Changing the Oil is Your Option.........<br />You're Not adding it to the Oil.... Just running it thru the Air Flow(both In & out).................<br />Oh Ya, Don't substitute Comet, Just use Bon-Ami(All grit, No soap).......... Too Much Soap in the Comet.......<br /><br />Good Luck....
 

jimmythekid

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Re: Rebuilt Merc 454 question,

Bondo are you serious? I have never heard of that.
 

Bondo

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Re: Rebuilt Merc 454 question,

Bondo are you serious? I have never heard of that.
Very Serious................<br /><br />It Will Not, I repeat, Will Not fix Worn-Out Rings...........<br /><br />But,<br />If it's determined that Cylinder Glazing has occured, Or that the rings Won't Seat by themselfs,<br />Yes, It works very Well.............
 

rodbolt

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Re: Rebuilt Merc 454 question,

hello<br /> i have done it bondo. its a last resort but on certain automotive applications its been known to work. that is where in my youth I learned to read the instructions. we built a nice 302 for a friends truck and added slick 50 before installing it. that is when we found out that slick 50 will inhibit ring seating. an antique mechanic told us of the bon-ami trick and it worked.<br /> but I would not use it on a customers engine :) :) .
 
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