Serious wiring difficulty and no starting.

kaherc

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82 Mercruiser (Chevy)5.0L 305. Trying to figure out how to wire up the starter and alternator and have it work so that batts get charged as well. Installed a new alternator with an internal regulator where the old was external reg. Also, have put in an electronic ignition conversion and coil. Used to be points. New coil #is 40011.<br />Attempted to wire it all up. Engine cranks great but wont start. Backfires big time thru carb. I looked at the manual and cant figure that out either. Feeling overwhelmed. Have been fixing this thing for a few months now. Bout ready to give up, take it out and sink test it. <br />Could really use some help. Anyone in the Tampa/Clearwater, Fla area?<br />Attempted to start again with #1 plug pulled out and connected to wire to see if theres<br /><br />Thanks Korie<br />Figures, I can fix million dollar jet engines and cant figure this stuff out! Isnt that just silly!
 

kaherc

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Re: Serious wiring difficulty and no starting.

Attempted to start again with #1 plug pulled out and connected to wire to see if theres a spark. Didnt see it.<br />Any suggestions?
 

kaherc

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Re: Serious wiring difficulty and no starting.

Also, where do you put the neg bat wire to grd the system?
 

Don S

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Re: Serious wiring difficulty and no starting.

What kind of distributor electronic conversion?<br />What's a 40011 coil?<br />What kind of alternator?<br />Did you remove the distributor or try resetting the timing?<br />What about the shift interrupt switches, how are they now wired in?<br />Ground goes to the engine. Usually under a bellhousing bolt. Most have studs back there for hooking the ground wire up.
 

rodbolt

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Re: Serious wiring difficulty and no starting.

dude <br /> slow down <br /> take a breath<br /> posting part numbers for non stock items does not help most of us.<br /> lets take it one step at a time, ya got the engine cranking, thats a start, now does it have spark, and does it spark at the correct time. remove #1 plug. tap the starter while holding your thumb over the plug hole. once you feel the motor coming up on compression stroke continue rotating the engine in its normal directuion until the piston is at TDC. you may wish to use a thin screwdriver to physically verify the piston TDC corresponds to the marks on the balancer. <br /> once TDC COMPRESSION stroke is found set the distributor in place.<br /> with the rotor pointing at the #1 tower on the cap snug the dist body down, use a spark plug in the #1 cyl wire. ground the plug. turn the key on. rotate the dist body back and forth watching it spark. you will get a feel for the exact point the spark occurs. once you find that spot the engine will start without an ign backfire if the correct fireing order was used.<br /> as far as the negative battery cable there is usually a stud on the bell housing.<br /> always remember that TDC occurs twice per cycle. only the compression stroke of TDC is used for ign timing.<br /> also double check your cap wiring. you would not be the first to use the wrong firing order or cyl numbers.
 

ron7000

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Re: Serious wiring difficulty and no starting.

Originally posted by Korie:<br /> Figures, I can fix million dollar jet engines and cant figure this stuff out! Isnt that just silly!
what airline you work for, I'll make sure not to fly them again :p <br /><br />the backfiring might be caused by having an improper firing order, so check to make sure the wires from the distributor are going to the correct spark plugs. It's easy to mix up.<br />When starting the engine and it backfires, have the distrib. loose so you can turn it. Turn it a little bit one way, if engine doesn't run better then you're turning wrong way. Turn little bit other way and it should run smoother, you'll need a timing light to set the ignition timing properly, 10 deg BTDC at 600-800 rpm.<br /><br />when you checked the spark of the spark plug, were you holding the threads of the plug against unpainted metal of the engine block or just up in the air? You need to ground the plug to observe it spark, when not in the engine.
 

Richard Petersen

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Re: Serious wiring difficulty and no starting.

All the engines are easy, if you have had the right training for each one. ;)
 

kaherc

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Re: Serious wiring difficulty and no starting.

Tried again today. Removed distributor since I removed and replaced it previously without #1 in TDC.<br />So, took distributor out, took #1 plug out,felt for the compression stroke on #1(used a remote start switch for cranking engine and disconnected fuel line too). Installed distributor and rewired cap to line up plug wires in proper firing order. Placed spark plug test tool into #1 plug wire. Clipped tool on exhaust riser (which is painted black, not sure if it will still ground?) And turned the key to try to start the engine.(without fuel going to it) Did not see anything from spark plug tool. <br /><br />Now what? <br /><br /> In my initial post I stated that I wasnt 100% sure about the wiring to everything.(coil, starter, alternator) Because of the upgraded alternator,(old one had external reg and new has internal reg, with a place for grd a place for pos and one red and one blk wire coming out of it, also put in an electronic conversion and coil(Petronix items)<br /> I can use some more help. Did I miss anything?<br />Is there something else I can do? How can I check the coil to make sure it works?<br /><br />Thanks
 

ron7000

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Re: Serious wiring difficulty and no starting.

a painted surface will almost always not conduct. It has to be unpainted metal, cleaner the better. A bolt threaded into the engine is the best, wire brush or sand the head of the bolt so there's no paint or rust on it. Couple places easily accessible are bolts on thermostat housing, base of carb, intake manifold bolts, sometimes exhaust manifold bolts depending on type of manifold.<br /><br />to test the coil, forget about the spark plug. take the coil wire, which goes from coil to center of distributor, and hold it or place it about 0.020" from a clean piece of metal on the engine, the bolt head I'm talking about. Crank engine over and you should hear and see spark jumping from coil wire to engine block. If you place wire contact on the metal, then there will be no spark jump, obviously, and if you hold it too far away then the gap will be too big and no spark. You need to hold it < 0.050" or so to metal. Once you verifiy the coil is outputting spark, reconnect coil wire to distrib.<br />Again, you can try observing spark at the spark plug with the plug removed from the engine, but the metal outside of the plug, the threads that screw into the head and what the spark plug socket turns on, needs to be touching a clean metal spot on the engine otherwise you won't see no spark.<br /><br />I have pertronix for a ford, only difference I know of with chevy is the rotor style but I think it all works the same: pertronix red & black wire coming out from under distr. cap goes to + & - side of coil, repspectively. When you turn your ignition key on, that sends power to the + side of coil. You're new alternator with internal regulator will have a heavy red wire coming out, that's where all the current comes out on. That can theoretically go anywhere on the + side of the whole electrical system, but it should go somewhere that can handle high current such as the fat post on the starter solenoid where 6 guage wire or bigger goes to from battery, or directly to the battery, or it may directly splice in to the 10 gauge wire running from your battery to your ignition switch. The other smaller wire, not sure which color, out the alternator is what's called a sensor wire. Because the alternator can output 14.0v at the alternator output terminal, it can only be say 12.0v for examples sake, when that power gets to the battery terminal due to length of wire and wire connections it has to travel through along with especially other loads placed on the system and where the alt. current output feeds into the electrical system. So the sensor wire connects to or near the battery to monitor voltage there, so if it sees the alternator charge at the battery is only 12.0v, the alternator increases voltage output at it's output terminal to 16.0v to make up for the 2v drop so voltage at the battery is 14.0 and it charges. For simplicity, you can hook the sensor wire up the same place the big alt. output wire goes to, or right to the output post on the alternator- it defeats the purpose of it but if all you're connections are clean and good it will be fine.<br />You may have a ground wire coming out the alternator also, check the instructions or with manufacturer of that alternator, if it's a ground then all it does is go to a clean ground point anywhere on the engine- the alternator is technically grounded through it's frame when it bolts onto the engine, but the wire is for a clean no resistance connection to ground so the alternator regulator can measure voltage properly.<br /><br />One reason you may not see spark is the wire on - side of coil is constantly going to ground through a shift interrupt switch. make sure that's working properly. other problem may be tachometer, there's a wire from - side of coil. if that's shorting to ground or the tach is bad that will cause ignition problems, you can just disconnect it for troubleshooting, engine will run fine just tach gauge won't work. If you hook up tach wire to coil and have problems then you know it's a bad tach or tach wire.
 

ron7000

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Re: Serious wiring difficulty and no starting.

hey, with the alternator read this :<br /> http://www.oldengine.org/unfaq/10si.htm <br /><br />if you can give a detailed description of the alternator- make/model/ where you bought it, etc. I might be able to help or look it up. If it's 3 wires coming out the alt, the 2 smaller ones might be the sensor or excitor wire, which goes to either unswitched or switched +12v power, and the other might be for a warning light and not a ground. When you said new alt. has place for ground, do you mean a wire coming out of it or a stud off the back of the alt. case? If it's a stud, you can verify it's a grounding stud by looking at it close, it won't be insulated from the case like the output stud is.
 

kaherc

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Re: Serious wiring difficulty and no starting.

I will try again tomorrow to get this thing working. I will follow your advice and see where it leads. Will let you know.<br />Korie
 

kaherc

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Re: Serious wiring difficulty and no starting.

ok tried a few mins ago. Took coil lead to distributor off of distributor, held close to manifold bolt. Did not hear but saw spark jump to bolt from wire. Also, checked for voltage from + side of coil to manifold bolt and got 12V. Checked from - side of coil to same bolt and got 12V. Is this normal? Is it also normal to have gauges energized when selecting 1,2, or both on bat selector switch? And when I put a plug tester on the #1 wire a clipped it to the thermostat housing bolt, no rust on it, did not see or hear spark from it. ALso took #1 plug out, connected #1 wire to it and lat it rest on the therm. housing with threads touching non rusty bolt. Did not see or hear spark, but did see and hear really big backfire thru carb and #1 plug hole with smoke from both. Where does this leave me?<br />Korie
 

Bondo

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Re: Serious wiring difficulty and no starting.

but did see and hear really big backfire thru carb and #1 plug hole with smoke from both. Where does this leave me?<br />
The Ignition System IS working,....... <br /><br />You've Either got the Firing Order Really Screwed Up,.... Or the Dist. is Off by a tooth or 2..........<br /><br /><br />BTW,...... The Gauges Shouldn't be Powered until the Key Switch is turned to the Run position........<br />You've got some wires Crossed here as well......
 

kaherc

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Re: Serious wiring difficulty and no starting.

Ok check my #1 at TDC just for the hell of it and concluded that I did not have it exactly at TDC It was on the compression stroke but I didnt have the mark on the crank pulley lined up with the Zero on the timing marker. SO removed the <br />distributor Again, used a remote switch to bump it to zero with mark on pulley, reinstalled dist. and made sure the rotor was pointing right to the #1 wire. It cranked very smoothly, and seemed to start twice for a sec or 2 then died. Now my batts are very low so I am charging them. <br />And whats the deal with being off a tooth or 2 if I can rotate the distributor and if Im off a tooth or 2 wouldnt I not be able to install the distributor and have it seat all the way down. If I pull it back out and twist it a tooth or 2 distance wouldnt it not go in cuz of the rectangular shaped little arm wouldnt be able to go into the distributor?
 

kaherc

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Re: Serious wiring difficulty and no starting.

Oh and Im going to figure out the deal with my wiring and power to guages with just turning batt power on. will post back soon.
 

Bondo

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Re: Serious wiring difficulty and no starting.

And whats the deal with being off a tooth or 2 if I can rotate the distributor and if Im off a tooth or 2 wouldnt I not be able to install the distributor and have it seat all the way down. If I pull it back out and twist it a tooth or 2 distance wouldnt it not go in cuz of the rectangular shaped little arm wouldnt be able to go into the distributor?
The Dist. Can't rotate Enough to make up for a tooth or 2,..... Period......<br />That's WHY it's got to be done RIGHT.........<br /><br />" rectangular shaped little arm "<br />I'm Just Guessing Here,.............<br />If by chance you're talking about the little bit of Rectangular shaped steel that protrudes from the Bottom of the Dist. Drive Gear,............<br /><br />That's the Oil Pump Drive Tab,...........<br />If it Doesn't line up at the Same Time as the Dist. Drive Gear,........<br />You'll need to reach down in there with a Long Screwdriver,+ Align It..............<br /><br />As You're finding Out,...........<br /><br />There's Only 1 Way to put things back together,...........<br />That's the Right Way.............
 

kaherc

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Re: Serious wiring difficulty and no starting.

How do I know if Im a tooth or 2 off? I've been trying to start the eng by myself. Am I suppossed to try and start it and if it doesnt stay on turn the distributor slowly one way or the other and try again? I would imagine thats how I should be doing it, right? And if it still doesn't start then try to realign it by removing then turning one way, see if it gets better and if not turn back the other way?<br /><br />Also, on the power to guages before ignition is switched to the on position. I don't know where else to connect the (WHat I understand is the positive feed wire for the instrument cluster) wire. Where should it normally be connected too?<br /><br /><br />I appreciate all the input as well, thank you all.
 

kaherc

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Re: Serious wiring difficulty and no starting.

If I were off by a tooth or 2 would it still light off? I understand that it would run really rough, but would it still run?
 

Don S

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Re: Serious wiring difficulty and no starting.

If I were off by a tooth or 2 would it still light off?
No, you have to be fairly close to get it to run.<br />Do you have a manual?<br /><br />
Installing%20Distributer.png
 

kaherc

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Re: Serious wiring difficulty and no starting.

When I have #1 at TDC and install distributor I cannot rotate the rotor as it states in your post Don S. However I can rotate the distributor hous<br />ing. The distributor case turns the rotor stays stationary.
 
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