Speaking of ECMs . . .

[QC]

How can these guys (Raylar) say this? Possible?

[SIZE=+1]5. If I make Raylar parts additions to my Mercury or Volvo engine will I need to have my ECM reprogrammed?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Answer: NO! Our dyno testing has shown that these engines when equipped with our "BIGPOWER" cylinder heads, intake manifolds and cams do not require reprogramming to make the horsepower increases. The speed density controlled systems as equipped on these engines require only a simple fuel pressure setting increase to provide new power levels![/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]

[/SIZE]

 

[JustJason]

Re: Speaking of ECMs . . .

simple.... sorta.

The way the injection system works is like this.... (in a very big nutshell)

The engine measures the amount of air comming into it. Depending on what it see's for air it adds a specific amount of fuel to get the mixture right. It does this by turning on the fuel injector for a very specific amount of time.
The ECM does not know what the fuel pressure is. But its fuel/air tables are mapped in such a way that it was programmed using a "set, specific pressure range".

If you have 40 psi behind an injector and you turn it on for .25 of a second, you will get a specific amount of fuel out of it. If you have 60psi behind the injector and you turn it on for that same .25 of a second you obviously get more fuel out of the injector.

What this company is selling is a way to get more air into the engine.
This company is also saying that if you alter the factory fuel pressure (i'm going to assume swapping out a regulator) the factory ECM fuel/air maps are fine.
So this company Raylar can say whatever it wants to move their product. Will it work?? probably. Will it last?? Who knows.....

 

[QC]

Re: Speaking of ECMs . . .

Those things make sense to me, but in a diesel truck engine the ECM would say "too much air, you're messing about with stuff you shouldn't, take this (check engine light), sorry, mess with somebody else's stuff." I guess those safeguards aren't built in. Great for aftermarket people, but seems stupid for an OEM . . .

 

[JustJason]

Re: Speaking of ECMs . . .

essentially what they are doing is tricking the factory ECM by manipulating fuel pressures.
To satisfy the ecm it wants to see something from the map sensor and the tps. The ecm doesn't care about the volume of air, only the pressure differential of it from what the map reads outside the engine vs inside the intake manifold.
in an internal combustion engine.... there is no such thing as "too much air". It's more like "does it have enough fuel for all that air"

 

[Bondo]

Re: Speaking of ECMs . . .

Ayuh,...

I think not having an O2 sensor is a part of the way it works....
The ecm can't see whether it's too much fuel, or too little air.....
It can only load the in-coming air with the injector pulse at the airflow seen...

On my diesel pickup,..
I've read of using a diode to fool the map sensor to add fuel that way...

Did I mention I Love carburetors on boats,......

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: Speaking of ECMs . . .

Notice they say very little on cam ratios or head port sizing... But as you go up and then they state "possible" HP

[SIZE=+1]Raylar Inc. BCK 103 BigPower Engine Kit[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Engine kit consists of:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]? BigPower aluminum cylinder heads (pair) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]? BP 103 High Performance camshaft designed to work with 496-8.1 engines fitted with stock pistons. Marine and HiPo[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]? R-INTK "CoolGap" intake manifold[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]? R170SS1-1.7 ratio SS roller rockers with nuts[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]? R-ARP1 re-torqueable high strength head bolts[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]? RCM-SS1 Cometic special MLS head gasket set[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=+1]*Note: BCK 103 kit has made 525+HP on a stock Mercury 496HO ECM,................ re-programmed................... MEF14 ECM or a reprogrammed GM computer controlled vehicle with headers.[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=+1]Now all of sudden you have to reprogram...[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]​

At one time JustJason explantion had me going but as he said Long term survial........​

[/SIZE]

 

[abj87]

Re: Speaking of ECMs . . .

Its just a band aid fix instead to retuning the ECM the proper way. With a cam change the fuel map really needs to be redone.

 

[Don S]

Re: Speaking of ECMs . . .

Why not just stick with OEM ???

Note: The ECU aka PCM on this engine is right at $25,000 Yes, 3 zero's.

Bold new graphics, trick carbon fiber valve covers and new style anodized billet aluminum pulleys are the differentiating birthmarks which distinguish the 1075 SCi as Mercury Racing's premium sterndrive engine package. New high performance air filters/flame arrestors, custom designed for Mercury Racing by ITG, enhance engine operating efficiency and increase durability resulting in lower maintenance.

The 1075 SCi is mild mannered due to the Mercury exclusive PCM 03 microprocessor - the brain behind the brawn. The 1075 SCi features a pair of Lysholm twin screw superchargers with multi-port fuel injection, providing sport boaters with turn-key starting, incredible idling, great running quality and smooth as silk shifting.

Super charger boost is variable. A boost bypass control valve, electronically activated by the PCM 03 micro-processor, continuously adjusts the amount of boost needed to provide consistent horsepower under any operating condition or environment. The PCM 03 computer also optimizes fuel, spark timing and knock control independently for each cylinder to enhance engine running quality, performance, fuel economy, and durability.​

 

[QC]

Re: Speaking of ECMs . . .

I was just surfing. You know I am an OEM type of guy, even though I work for an aftermarket skunk works type of place . . . Hmmmmm . . . Seeing the GM supercharged 6.2 had me looking for news about it and I ran into Raylar

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: Speaking of ECMs . . .

Why not just stick with OEM ???

Note: The ECU aka PCM on this engine is right at $25,000 Yes, 3 zero's.

Bold new graphics, trick carbon fiber valve covers and new style anodized billet aluminum pulleys are the differentiating birthmarks which distinguish the 1075 SCi as Mercury Racing's premium sterndrive engine package. New high performance air filters/flame arrestors, custom designed for Mercury Racing by ITG, enhance engine operating efficiency and increase durability resulting in lower maintenance. ​

The 1075 SCi is mild mannered due to the Mercury exclusive PCM 03 microprocessor - the brain behind the brawn. The 1075 SCi features a pair of Lysholm twin screw superchargers with multi-port fuel injection, providing sport boaters with turn-key starting, incredible idling, great running quality and smooth as silk shifting. ​

Super charger boost is variable. A boost bypass control valve, electronically activated by the PCM 03 micro-processor, continuously adjusts the amount of boost needed to provide consistent horsepower under any operating condition or environment. The PCM 03 computer also optimizes fuel, spark timing and knock control independently for each cylinder to enhance engine running quality, performance, fuel economy, and durability. ​

Well Don its really just a prom, almost as old as me. ummm almost..Something so simple as a flash program can change its operating principles....Early 80's stuff

I really never knew just how primitive boat tech was. And i am not saying its bad...but way overpriced ...Way a prom is a $4.00 part and Volvo charges a 1000.....for programming it....with 80's tech... My god TG has been in the wrong business.

 

[JustJason]

Re: Speaking of ECMs . . .

it's not the flashable memory that makes an ECM so expensive. Its all of the transistorized switchs in side of the thing, plus all the R&D to make it, plus the actual manufactoring cost to make it, plus they only sell tens of thousands a year to recoup those costs and make somewhat of a profit on it. Compared to the Auto world where they will sell hundreds of thousands a year of different cars with the same ECM's.

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: Speaking of ECMs . . .

it's not the flashable memory that makes an ECM so expensive. Its all of the transistorized switchs in side of the thing, plus all the R&D to make it, plus the actual manufactoring cost to make it, plus they only sell tens of thousands a year to recoup those costs and make somewhat of a profit on it. Compared to the Auto world where they will sell hundreds of thousands a year of different cars with the same ECM's.

Jason i am no one to have a professional opinion on marine tech that is for sure. I have hacked intel procs amd proc's turned up the speed on both nividia and ati proc's it all part of having kids and trying to live on a budget..

The last i knew which i will admit is 5 yrs ago changing a program on a hard device was only allowable on a e-prom with that said are you saying a MEFI-3 using some kind of brain other than a e-prom and it is nor reprogramable???

Or are you saying it is a cpu...its either one or another, but i am learning plz explain????

 

[SuzukiChopper]

Re: Speaking of ECMs . . .

it's not the flashable memory that makes an ECM so expensive. Its all of the transistorized switchs in side of the thing, plus all the R&D to make it, plus the actual manufactoring cost to make it

It's the R&D that makes them expensive... transistors are cheap (the switch circuitry has been around for at least a decade) and manufacturing from China... psshhhttt $20 tops per 100 units.

Still outrageous either way you slice it.

 

[QC]

Re: Speaking of ECMs . . .

You guys would not believe the investment we have in mapping, certifying, software, hardware, testing, prototypes for 1900 unit sales worldwide since 1994 . . .

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: Speaking of ECMs . . .

You guys would not believe the investment we have in mapping, certifying, software, hardware, testing, prototypes for 1900 unit sales worldwide since 1994 . . .

I do unerstand QC i have worked in corporate enviroments for years....You can take a product with 700 times earnings and beaurcy can turn it into 5 times earning's...

Its time to go has finally come...........

 

[JustJason]

Re: Speaking of ECMs . . .

I think some of you guys here are confused as to what's actually "inside the box" on an ECM, ECU, PCM etc etc....
Its essentially... everything. It takes in battery voltage and then sends out either a reference voltage or a reference ground signal to every single sensor on the engine, then on a seperate wire It looks for a return voltage or a path to ground. Depending on what it see's for return voltages or resitances to ground it makes decisions that effect the fuel mapping and ignition timing curves. The switches that fire the injectors are built into the ECM, the switches the fire the ignition system, are built in. If the engine has a guardian system... It's built in. If the package has smartcraft, it's built in. If it has skyhook, it's built in.
This isn't your PC, Macbook, laptop, or Casio calculating wristwatch.
It doesn't need to "boot up". It always works when the key is turned on.
It's solid state.
Yes some to have some sort of memory. Depending on the system fuel maps are stored in it, but will default back to the circutry in event of an error. Some systems log every single DTC. Some log how many hours you spend at how many rpms.
Above all.... it has to work. Your video card or whatever PC perhipheral wouldn't last a day under the doghouse of a sterndrive. Marine ECM's are designed to last for "life" of the package. Whatever you take "life" to mean.
Failures do happen. But the failure is usually caused by something outside of the actual ECM.
At any given point there is probably 30+ amps flowing in and out of the ECM. That's a fair amount of current. There is not alot out there for equipment that run that many amps and does so many things at once that last for a long long time.
Are they expensive.... absolutely. But price is relative to the individual. Are they worth the money???? Well... every time you go 5 miles offshore and the thing doesn't break, I'd say it's worth every penny.

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: Speaking of ECMs . . .

For the sake of clarity, i am about to gut one.

 

[SuzukiChopper]

Re: Speaking of ECMs . . .

I think some of you guys here are confused as to what's actually "inside the box" on an ECM, ECU, PCM etc etc....
Its essentially... everything. It takes in battery voltage and then sends out either a reference voltage or a reference ground signal to every single sensor on the engine, then on a seperate wire It looks for a return voltage or a path to ground. Depending on what it see's for return voltages or resitances to ground it makes decisions that effect the fuel mapping and ignition timing curves. The switches that fire the injectors are built into the ECM, the switches the fire the ignition system, are built in. If the engine has a guardian system... It's built in. If the package has smartcraft, it's built in. If it has skyhook, it's built in.
This isn't your PC, Macbook, laptop, or Casio calculating wristwatch.
It doesn't need to "boot up". It always works when the key is turned on.
It's solid state.
Yes some to have some sort of memory. Depending on the system fuel maps are stored in it, but will default back to the circutry in event of an error. Some systems log every single DTC. Some log how many hours you spend at how many rpms.
Above all.... it has to work. Your video card or whatever PC perhipheral wouldn't last a day under the doghouse of a sterndrive. Marine ECM's are designed to last for "life" of the package. Whatever you take "life" to mean.
Failures do happen. But the failure is usually caused by something outside of the actual ECM.
At any given point there is probably 30+ amps flowing in and out of the ECM. That's a fair amount of current. There is not alot out there for equipment that run that many amps and does so many things at once that last for a long long time.
Are they expensive.... absolutely. But price is relative to the individual. Are they worth the money???? Well... every time you go 5 miles offshore and the thing doesn't break, I'd say it's worth every penny.

I don't think you really know what's inside of an ECM or even really understand how it all works. How detailed would you like me to get? Would you like me to start with the specs of the components? Military grade or consumer grade? How about 'memory defaulting to circuitry'? (that made me laugh, thanks). I could also just say that the only reason marine ECM's are MARINE is because of the coating that is put on the board and components to keep moisture out... but would you believe me?

Really, the ECM in your CAR is built EXACTLY the same as one for a marine application (NOT including military), the only difference is the Marine one has a silicon based coating put over the entire thing to prevent moisture from shorting out any one of the systems and that is all house inside a weather tight box.

I can and will go in to more detail if you so wish.

PS. It is the same as your PC, laptop, etc. They're both computers that take an input and produce an output.

 

[JustJason]

Re: Speaking of ECMs . . .

I don't think you really know what's inside of an ECM or even really understand how it all works. How detailed would you like me to get?

I would like you to get as much into detail as you can brotha.... please enlighten me

Would you like me to start with the specs of the components? Military grade or consumer grade?

Sure... get into specs... because seriously. I have no idea what grade resistors Merc/Motorola puts inside of their ECMs.

How about 'memory defaulting to circuitry'?

Yes... as in with Merc... when it goes into guardian mode it pretty much dumps the eprom and sticks with the unrewritable, inflashable fuel maps for that engine.

I could also just say that the only reason marine ECM's are MARINE is because of the coating that is put on the board and components to keep moisture out... but would you believe me?

Sure i'd believe you. I have no idea what they cover the boards with. I've heard silicone, i've heard epoxy, i've heard a bunch of stuff over the years. But truthfully. I don't build ECM's for a living... so I don't really care.

Really, the ECM in your CAR is built EXACTLY the same as one for a marine application (NOT including military),

I'm sure the process is similar in the production phase. But I'd be willing to wager that the Marine versions are subject to stricter standards. If Merc or VP released a "defective" ECM and if somebody ever died becuase of it there would be lawsuits a plenty.

I can and will go in to more detail if you so wish.

As I stated before... please go into detail.

PS. It is the same as your PC, laptop, etc. They're both computers that take an input and produce an output.

It's acually not. An ECM, ECU, PCM etc etc... is not a computer. It is a solid state switching device. A computer routes information/voltage through a processor to various subprocessors to video cards, sound cards, hard drives.
An ECM has none of that except albeit a small subprocessor. An ECM does not process information. It reacts instantanously to changes in voltages and ground references. In a computer. You have 50% hardware and 50% software telling that hardware what do to. In an ECM, it's 99% hardware, and there is just a little bit of software in it to record the funny stuff.

 

[SuzukiChopper]

Re: Speaking of ECMs . . .

I would like you to get as much into detail as you can brotha.... please enlighten me

I may try and save my fingers on this one.

Sure... get into specs... because seriously. I have no idea what grade resistors Merc/Motorola puts inside of their ECMs.

They are all consumer grade components (unless used for a military application). The only real difference between military and consumer grade is the temperature ratings the components can handle and the heating and cooling cycles. The same components in your computer, in your thermostat, car radio, boat radio, etc... will all be the same as the ECM.

Yes... as in with Merc... when it goes into guardian mode it pretty much dumps the eprom and sticks with the unrewritable, inflashable fuel maps for that engine.

When an ECM goes in to 'limp mode' there is no map, it is also RARELY caused by memory failure. Roms are more often then not the LAST item to fail. 'Limp mode' is more often caused by sensor malfunction or input circuit malfunction. Without any input, or with malformed input data the ECM defaults to a set standard (part of the R&D process). If there is a fail over circuit due to unreadable memory then the circuit it relies on next will be the best overall output for the failure (again, R&D). Also, just for clarity and to be specific, ECM's use a microcontroller (generally where the ROM is as well). That is the heart and sole of the beast.

Sure i'd believe you. I have no idea what they cover the boards with. I've heard silicone, i've heard epoxy, i've heard a bunch of stuff over the years. But truthfully. I don't build ECM's for a living... so I don't really care.

Most marine electronics that aren't serviceable will be covered in something. Epoxy most unlikely depending on the components of the circuit because it would transfer vibrations.

I'm sure the process is similar in the production phase. But I'd be willing to wager that the Marine versions are subject to stricter standards. If Merc or VP released a "defective" ECM and if somebody ever died becuase of it there would be lawsuits a plenty.

QA may be more strict but I'd be willing to bet that Merc or VP use some if not a lot of the same programming on the microcontrollers that their car based brethren use. The components would also be the same standard.

It's acually not. An ECM, ECU, PCM etc etc... is not a computer. It is a solid state switching device. A computer routes information/voltage through a processor to various subprocessors to video cards, sound cards, hard drives.
An ECM has none of that except albeit a small subprocessor. An ECM does not process information. It reacts instantanously to changes in voltages and ground references. In a computer. You have 50% hardware and 50% software telling that hardware what do to. In an ECM, it's 99% hardware, and there is just a little bit of software in it to record the funny stuff.

This is where you are confused the most. Would you believe me that the digital thermostat you *may* have on your wall for your furnace is a computer? What about your cell phone? Or even your digital watch?

Technically anything that receives and input and provides any kind of output is considered a computer, software or not. Video cards, modems, network cards in your PC are considered 'sister boards' to provide expandability and adaption for the 'computer' based on the user requirements. The software you see on your screen is for user enjoyment. An ECM actually is a computer and actually has quite complex software in it. It is all instantaneous but they also run millions of instructions a second. The hardware that would be required to make make decisions based on multiple inputs to control one single important output isn't worth the design time this day in age when one single microcontroller can control many outputs based on many inputs just as quickly. There is a reason why consumer products are becoming smaller and smaller... hardware is becoming less and less.



Don't get me wrong... ECMs are not simple devices, just don't confuse them for something they are not. The hardware in them is standard stuff (well to me anyways because it is what I went to school for), the software on the other hand is complex and did take a lot of R&D to develop.