Starter doesn't stop when engine starts

ali'i

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Neighbour has another problem with his just acquired 1974, 40hp Johnson, model, 40E74S, when you release the key, the starter keeps going, (not the screw shaft pinion sprocket thingy), just the starter motor, and you have to disconnect the battery for it to stop, thinking solenoid, but anyway to test? , or maybe ignition switch, or maybe neither, any suggestions, Thanks
 

boobie

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Re: Starter doesn't stop when engine starts

First guess would be the solenoid. Or disconnect the yellow/red wire off of the solenoid when it happens.
 

Fed

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Re: Starter doesn't stop when engine starts

If the screw shaft pinion sprocket thingy isn't turning then neither is the starter motor, or is it?
 

boobie

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Re: Starter doesn't stop when engine starts

Starter is probably not spinning fast enough to throw the pinion gear up.
 
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F_R

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Re: Starter doesn't stop when engine starts

Neighbour has another problem with his just acquired 1974, 40hp Johnson, model, 40E74S, when you release the key, the starter keeps going, (not the screw shaft pinion sprocket thingy), just the starter motor, and you have to disconnect the battery for it to stop, thinking solenoid, but anyway to test? , or maybe ignition switch, or maybe neither, any suggestions, Thanks

Starter is running after you release the key, right? Something is continuing to feed the solenoid coil, OR the solenoid is sticking.

If you can catch it while it is happening, be ready to disconnect the small wire from the solenoid. That should stop it. If it doesn't, then the solenoid is sticking.
 

boobie

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Re: Starter doesn't stop when engine starts

Read post # 2.
 

oldboat1

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Re: Starter doesn't stop when engine starts

I understand you to say the motor starts. If that sprocket you refer to (bendix gear) kicks down the shaft when the motor starts, that's good. It means the battery is good and the starter is likely good too (along with the bendix). If that's correct, though, the spinning starter should keep shoving the bendix up to the flywheel and creating a nasty grinding sound (like when you try to start your car after it's already running).

so I'm at a loss, I guess. In cases where the starter won't shut off, it can be a stuck solenoid or one that is incorrectly wired -- direct current is getting through somehow, rather than the intermittent current you want with a starter switch or button.

Let me raise another issue, though. If the battery is disconnected while the engine is running, for whatever reasons, the charging system is almost certainly being damaged. There will be a blown rectifier ($40 bolt on replacement, or thereabouts).
 

Crosbyman

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Re: Starter doesn't stop when engine starts

40 bucks for a fullwave rectifiers....I would try a $3 one from Radio Shack good for 50 volts and 25 amps

square. center hole can be used to mount and 4 pins 2 AC in.... one +12v and one to grd

25A, 50V Full-Wave Bridge Rectifiers : Rectifiers | RadioShack.com

better get some .... I read recently that RS may be having a hard time to stay alive...like Sears.
 

Vic.S

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Re: Starter doesn't stop when engine starts

40 bucks for a fullwave rectifiers....I would try a $3 one from Radio Shack good for 50 volts and 25 amps

square. center hole can be used to mount and 4 pins 2 AC in.... one +12v and one to grd

25A, 50V Full-Wave Bridge Rectifiers : Rectifiers | RadioShack.com

better get some .... I read recently that RS may be having a hard time to stay alive...like Sears.

I think you will find this motor has a 4 wire type of rectifier where there are 3 AC input wires and a positive output while the case is the negative to ground.
It is in effect a three phase rectifier consisting of 6 diodes, not a simple 4 diode bridge rectifier like the Radio Shack ones.
 

Crosbyman

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Re: Starter doesn't stop when engine starts

good point.... if 3 AC leads are the source then one could get a 3 phase rectifier but one would have to look at another supplier.
 

WernerF

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Re: Starter doesn't stop when engine starts

50V rectifier rating is a little low in case you need to run the motor without battery.
 

Crosbyman

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Re: Starter doesn't stop when engine starts

35 Amp 3 Three Phase Bridge Rectifier Wind | eBay

May I presume this infers that the unloaded stator would generate voltages above 50V across the rectifier ? ? If so the alternatives are few.

1- never disconnect the battery if the engine is running
2- shop for a 3 phase rectifier with a higher voltage capacity

due to shipping $$$ best to shop around a bit
 
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boobie

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Re: Starter doesn't stop when engine starts

What do rectifiers have to do with the starter spinning slowly when the motor is running ?? Please enlighten me.
 

oldboat1

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Re: Starter doesn't stop when engine starts

no connection, but you referred to disconnecting the battery while the engine was running, and that will ruin the rectifier. (had not heard of higher voltage rectifiers as an exception -- better part of wisdom is never to run the motor without a battery connection). But the rectifier issue is a separate one.

sooo...The starter is getting juice when it shouldn't, but not enough to make it operate. There are a couple of electrical quandries from what you report. If the starter is spinning (i.e., the starter shaft) the bendix gear should be forced upwards into the flywheel. If there is insufficient battery charge, the gear will not engage. Actually, it is more likely that there would be a clicking sound at the -- properly working -- solenoid, but no starter operation. Bendix issues aside, though, if the starter is operating without the starter button or key engaged (the latter at the start position), there is another electrical problem or issue. Current is continuously going to the starter, when it should be generated only on a controlled, intermittant basis. The starter circuit may be miswired, probably at the solenoid. OR (and I think this might be more likely), the key continues to be engaged in the start position when the spring-loaded assembly should kick it back to the run position. Likewise, the start button, if there is one, could remain in the start position because the spring release isn't working. I think the first step is probably to replace the starter switch or button. In the case of a starter key switch, it may be shorting -- probably more likely than a starter button would. I take it the starter (and engine) will not shut off when the key is switched off, or there wouldn't seem to be any need to disconnect the battery. What happens to the running engine and starter when the key is turned off?
 
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boobie

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Re: Starter doesn't stop when engine starts

Put a volt meter on the starter terminal once when this happens and see what kind of a reading you get.
 

Crosbyman

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Re: Starter doesn't stop when engine starts

Presumably reading the voltage at the starter will only confirm that +12 is present since the known result is a spinning starter motor.

An " electrically" stuck starter is a consequence of something upstream since it's energy comes from a switched+12v supply.

there are but very few possibilities.

1- starter key position is sticking the contacts closed and that can be quickly tested at the SELENOID post . +12 should only be
present during a normal cranking duration. If found to be continous thet the starter key is likely defective

2- IF NO +12v is coming from the starter key/button (measure from the key to ground with the selenoid post disconnected) and the selenoid is sticking ON to close the circuit to spin the starter then it means the internal contacts are sticking together or a stray 12v is energizing the relay

3- one last but really odd thing would be bad wiring to the selenoid whereby the selenoid is getting stray +12V from somewhere AFTER the starter key has been put in momentary START mode. This would cause a "self lock-up" which can only be released by disconnecting the battery. The selenoid should have only ONE wire from the start key nothing else (other thar the two batt. posts of course)

Relay lock-paths were frequently used in the telecom industry when electro-magnet relays filled entire central offices. Once magnetized one closed relay contact would return a feed of battery to the winding then the relay would LOCK-UP on itself.
This may be happening on this selenoid resulting is a permanently energized selenoid relay..... and a permanetly spinning starter !

one quick test would be to momentarily jumper a clean 12v from the battery onto the selenoid control post (small one) . The starter should only spin while +12v is applied to the post. If it locks up when the battery supply is taken of the post then the selenoid is locking internally on its on +12 from the output post feeding 12V to the starter. Time to change the selenoid if not done already.
The proper selenoid must be used ..not some automotive replacement.

If unfamiliar with a voltmeter why not used an automotive test light to just look for +12v or...not
 

boobie

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Re: Starter doesn't stop when engine starts

I read threw this post again and have a question. Did you ever replace the starter solenoid ??
 

ali'i

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Re: Starter doesn't stop when engine starts

Was away for awhile, back now, so just want to explain the situation better. When keys is turned to start, starter turns the engine over, and engine will start if you crank it long enough, but not when doing a comp test for example, but when you release the key or turn to off the starter pinion does drop down, but starter motor is still running, and must unhook battery cable to stop it. Battery is new and fully charged and no corroded connections. No parts have been replaced, as the motor is being replaced, but would like to be able to sell a running motor, but not worth putting a lot of money into it as even running its not going to be worth much. Thanks
 

boobie

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Re: Starter doesn't stop when engine starts

So are you going to sell it "As Is" ??
 

Bosunsmate

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Re: Starter doesn't stop when engine starts

Change your solenoid, the spring will be probably be stuffed and its sticking or some electrode gunk in there is sticking it
 
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