Starter Failing - Engine needs to be lifted?

[tenmile]

Hey guys,

I have a 2002 350Mag MPI engine.

Several months ago, I ended up with a loose clamp on my exhaust bellows that leaked seawater into the engine compartment. I believe the leaking water got the starter/solenoid wet and I am now experiencing a failing starter and solenoid (slave solenoid checks out ok, but master solenoid will just click -- try a few key turns and eventually it will connect and start).

Anyhow, I now need to remove the starter and solenoid to either replace or rebuild (at the very least inspect). With the design of the engine compartment in the boat, both units are virtually impossible to see as they are located on the underside of the engine -- just about in the worst place to access in my engine compartment. I've never removed a starter before so ended up calling the professionals (I'd take it on myself if I could at least see the thing, but blind is another story). He gave me a call today indicating he can get one of the bolts off, but can't turn the second due to the lack of room -- only way to repair is to haul the boat out (I don't have a trailer), take it to his shop, and lift the engine (the bill would not be pretty).

Can anyone think of an alternative here to yanking the engine? Is there some sort of flexible impact wrench or another tool out there that could apply the force needed (safely)?

 

[180shabah]

Re: Starter Failing - Engine needs to be lifted?

If there isn't enough room to get the bolts out, there won't be room to get the starter out.

Two options are pull the engine or cut the deck. Guess which one is easier to put back?

 

[Gary H NC]

Re: Starter Failing - Engine needs to be lifted?

Kinda normal....many boats just do not have room to get to the starter bolts.
Be sure he removes the out drive before lifting the engine and checks alignment before bolting the drive back on.

 

[Juniinc]

Re: Starter Failing - Engine needs to be lifted?

$$$ just for a starter.
Is the engine compartment housing removable at all?

 

[Don S]

Re: Starter Failing - Engine needs to be lifted?

Most newer (2000 and above) small boats are designed for everything other than repairs. Simple things like starters, raw water pump impellers, tuneups, exhaust manifolds, many times need to have the engine pulled to do the work.
I have had boats that the starter bolt is just above the stringer. You can't unscrew it.
Buyers always look at the room to play on a boat, not access for maintenance items. that is until it's too late.

 

[tenmile]

Re: Starter Failing - Engine needs to be lifted?

The things you learn as time goes by... Always knew that it was pretty strange to have a Mercruiser engine in a Seaswirl boat -- learned today that the prior owner changed the engine from a Volvo to the Merc as some of the wiring is still the Volvo standard. Kind of makes me wonder what happened there... It's one of the reasons these components are so hard to get at -- the Volvo engine have the starter and water pump located elsewhere.

If I get the local shop to do this job @ $110/hr rate, I am probably looking at a minimum of $1500-2000 for this repair after I factor in the hauling out, transport and time/materials. That cost gives me the incentive to turn this into a DIY job.

Unfortunately, there is nothing in the engine compartment or deck that can be (easily) removed without the use of a saber-saw. Think I might take down a mirror, ratchet and long extension and see if there is a way to get the bolt off. Not sure how hard the guy really tried as he was priming me for engine lift before he started.

Since this is my first starter removal -- I've taken a look at service manual 31 for the starter removal. It looks relatively straight forward other than the bolt issue (I know I will regret saying that out loud too). Are there any gotchas I need to know prior to starting this job?

 

[180shabah]

Re: Starter Failing - Engine needs to be lifted?

The starter wouldn't be any easier to access with the original engine. VP and merc both used the same Chevy engines - components are in the same place.

 

[NHGuy]

Re: Starter Failing - Engine needs to be lifted?

I'd be willing to bust a few knuckles to save $2G. Make SURE the battery is disconnected before you touch any of that stuff, you could put yourself in the hospital if something goes wrong.
If you can get a socket on the bolt you can use a small impact driver to remove, maybe a 3/8" impact drive. Sometimes I need a universal-joint style swivel on the socket when doing long reaches. If you're doing a horizontal reach and need a swivel you can wrap the u-joint with some stretchy tape or elastic bands to keep the socket from falling down. Once the old starter is out then you have to put in a new starter-and you better spend the money for a factory piece. No auto stuff-starts fires.
Then if you get it partway done and still have to pull the engine, 1st remove the drive, possibly some wiring and linkages; get an engine hoist, and raise the engine just enough to change the part. Then put it back on the mounts, disconnect the ignition and check that the starter cranks properly.
Now decide if you want to align the engine yourself, and reattach the drive yourself. I have a terrible time hanging my drive, some claim it is easy. I would pay for a proper motor alignment and drive installation because my drive was such a nightmare to hang last year, which was my first. If you end up jacking the engine there are a number of maintenance and upkeep things to consider doing. Bellows are worth changing if they are not recent. There is a double u-joint coupler in front of the gimbal housing that should be lubed while it is exposed. And check over all hoses, wiring and soft parts that are changeable while the engine and drive are apart, you will be surprised at how many rubber pieces get brittle. If you are a do it yourselfer you may save a little money but spend some time to do it on your own.

By all means check more techs, somebody may know a technique or move to change that starter for you.
I wish you luck and honest dealings, I wouldn't want to have to do that job, but I'd do it if it was on my boat.

 

[tenmile]

Re: Starter Failing - Engine needs to be lifted?

Found a good tip on how to do it, thought I would share:

"I have replaced many a starter in many a bost that were designed for MIGGITS!!

I go 6'+ and 220 lbs and believe me it can be one of the hardest jobs to do.

Get a deep dish 6 point 9/16 socket. get a 2-3 inch 3/8" extension and rachet. Feel ahead of time with your hands and get a feel where they are.
One is very tight to the bellhousing cover and it is tight!!

The bolt heads SHOULD be approx 1 inch long so you can get that much of the deep dish socket on good and deep. If they are not, when you get them out go get the long headed bolts.

Take your time and be very patient!!
Disconnect the starter wires and attach a wire hanger to support the starter after the bolts are removed.

The bolts go into the block from directly underneath the starter, in other words towards the motor cover top/sky!"

 

[tschmidty]

Re: Starter Failing - Engine needs to be lifted?

I wouldn't mind a comment on one thing I saw a guy do when he replaced the starter.

He actually used a small hi-torque race motor starter since the smaller size let him get in and install it easier. Any thoughts?

 

[tenmile]

Re: Starter Failing - Engine needs to be lifted?

I've still not dealt with this starter issue and things are getting worse so it's moving higher up on the priority list. A fellow boat-owner popped by the other day and indicated that on his VP 5.7 that he removed the Manifold/Riser first, making it easier to get at and remove the starter. Sounds like removal of these parts is relatively easy, but that the re-installation can be tricky. Any comments? I've done a ton of reading of these forums, and I don't see any major difficulties...

 

[wire2]

Re: Starter Failing - Engine needs to be lifted?

I agree, pull the exhaust from that side for more access. Lay a mirror on the floor below the starter, with a CF or LED light beside it. Now you should be able to see the 2 bolts, and decide what wrench is best. I used a plain 3/8 drive ratchet w/ a 3" extension and a 6 pt socket. Had to bang the handle a couple times with the heel of my hand to start them. Be prepared for ~10-12 lbs dropping when you get to the last few threads.
I tied a nylon line to the new one, then had a friend hold the other end to lower it sort of into position to start the bolts.

Also, expect to have sore neck & shoulder muscles when you're done.

 

[cr2k]

Re: Starter Failing - Engine needs to be lifted?

Don't forget you need new bolts when you remove the starter. If you buy a new one they will come with it, if you have yours rebuilt you will need to buy new bolts. Why? The bolts have a knurled shoulder that aligns the starter. If you reuse them you will find yourself back under there trying to retighten them a few times a year.

The nylon strap idea had worked good for me several times. Also a rubber bungee. Never thought about the mirror in the bilge, Great idea!

If you pull the engine, leave the mounts bolted to the engine and just pull the lag bolts out of the stringer. It makes it much easier and goes back in quicker.

You will need an alignment tool, available on eBay. If you go without and alignment tool plan on another engine pull to replace the coupler ($275).

Forward gear, pull the drive, pull the engine. It may take you a day or a weekend, but you will save major $$ and have a great satisfaction of a DIY accomplishment. And learn a little about yourself and your boat. What kind of time was the mechanic quoting you? We usually do something like this in 2 or 3 hours or less in the shop.

 

[tenmile]

Re: Starter Failing - Engine needs to be lifted?

Thanks for the replies. Are the Manifold/Riser tricky to re-install? I will pick up the new gaskets and get the chance to inspect them -- gives me a chance to see if flushing with Salt-Away actually does anything.

 

[bigdaddypt]

Re: Starter Failing - Engine needs to be lifted?

the manifolds and risers aren't tricky to do...just real heavy and akward. undo the hoses, undo the 4 bolts for the riser...remove riser...undo the 4 bolts for the manifold, remove manifold. Make sure you tighten everything real good when you put back on.

 

[Tommywalton]

Re: Starter Failing - Engine needs to be lifted?

I was completely convinced that my 350/vp wound have to come out of my bayliner capri to replace. I was wrong. I could get the short bolt out but not the long one. to gain the leverage i needed i had to remove the manifold/riser to get it. i used my butterfly impact to remove the long bolt. very difficult to get to with lots of swearing. I didnt have enough room to start the long bolt first it hit the hull. you can get it to go on my setup by putting the long bolt in the starter holding it while you put it in place. lots of swearing did i mention that? have new exhaust manifold gaskets ready to replace the ones you will mess up when removing manifold. Also mine would only click and start after many keyturns as well. bad ignition switch which i found out by bypassing all the igintion wiring so check that first.

 

[tenmile]

Re: Starter Failing - Engine needs to be lifted?

Finally got all the parts together and did this job yesterday. My boat is a 2003 (new in 2005) so has risers/manifolds at the 5 year mark so I decided to replace them and get a new starter in there. Removal was easy -- had to get the shift plate and ECU off both risers. One of the bolts wanted to strip, but we were able to coax it off.

Given that these risers were 5+ years old, they still had loads of life in them. I took a screwdriver to them and the walls are all very solid. Decided to change them out anyhow with aluminum manifolds and risers from HGE.

Once the starboard manifold was out, we could see the starter so getting arms and wrenches in there was 100% easier. One bolt came out easy, the other was very tight, but with a long pipe we got leverage on it and out it came. Old starter was heavily corroded from a problem I had about a year ago when the starboard exhaust bellow clamps came loose and shot water over it for a couple of months.

Cleaned up all the connectors, reseated, and coated them with Woody Wax after installing (keeps things waterproof). Did a quick starter test before installing the manifolds.

New manifolds and risers mated right up. Had to pull all the factory plugs and use teflon tape as our initial leak test had some water leaking out.

Start to finish with 2 guys (recommended) was 4 hours -- neither of us had done this job, but the advice above and the manual had us well prepared.

Recommended tools -- pivoting heat ratchet, large assortment of sockets, wrenches, ratcheting wrenches etc to get at stubborn bolts -- along with a long pipe to get at the starter bolt.

 

[180shabah]

Re: Starter Failing - Engine needs to be lifted?

Sounds like a job well done.

 

[TomOfSaratoga]

Re: Starter Failing - Engine needs to be lifted?

Are there On-Line Manuals available? We have a 1994 Mercruiser 4.3 V6 with two broken starter bolts. I don't see any way short of engine pull to get them tapped out and replaced. Bolts run vertical to the engine block.

Is there anyway to do this short of pulling the outdrive first?

Thanks,
Tom

 

[180shabah]

Re: Starter Failing - Engine needs to be lifted?

The outdrive is the easy part of that job, and if it hasn't been off - it needs to be.

Manuals?

Go back to the very first thread in this forum "adults only" merc manuals and a ton of DIY info there.