starter help PLEASE

[mrrick555]

wiring in a 1987 force 125. all wires seem right...but, turn the key switch to start and nothing. replaced the starter solenoid. when the neutral safety switch is engaged there is 12 volts at the the starter relay on that contact, but the ground contact also has 12 volts on the starter solenoid. If I put a ground wire from starter solenoid to block as soon as I touch ground cable to battery the starter engages. What am I missing? thanks Rick

 

[TwoFish]

Re: starter help PLEASE

At the risk of stating the obvious you have something wired wrong. I?ve done this before as well. The solenoid has two circuits. One is the switching circuit from the ignition switch and the other is the main power circuit that connects the positive cable from the battery to the starter. It very easy to switch a wire around by mistake when changing the solenoid. There are usually other wires that are connected to the solenoid such as the positive wire from the rectifier and a positive wire that takes power to the trim relays. This can also add to the problem of working out what is wrong.

I have attached a diagram of the basic wiring for a solenoid.

Switching circuit:

?C? is the positive in from the ignition switch. ?D? is the ground wire for the switching circuit. With the ignition switch OFF or in the ON position but not the START position you should have no power to ?C?. With the key turned all the way to the START position you should have 12 volts.

Main circuit to starter.

?A? is the cable that goes to your positive terminal on the battery. ?B? is the heavy cable leading from the solenoid to the positive cable on the starter.
?A? should have 12 volts when the battery is connected. This is also the terminal that any other positive wires will be connected to. Eg charging circuit and positive wires to the trim.

?B? terminal should not have any power until the ignition key is turned all the way to the start position. No other wires should be on this terminal.

Have a quick look at how the wiring is on your solenoid and hopefully things will make sense. From your description it sounds like you have power going to terminal ?C? all the time and when you ground terminal ?D? you complete the circuit and activate the solenoid which in turn supplies power to the starter.

I have also attached a circuit diagram for a Motorola ignition system. I?m not sure if your motor has this system. You may have wires in the wrong position on the terminal blocks. Doing the above check will tell you if there is a problem. Once you have done the checks it can be chased from there depending on what you find.

Good Luck

TwoFish

 

[Jiggz]

Re: starter help PLEASE

Don't forget to check the ckt breaker as shown. The flow of electricity for the starting ckt (control ckt which energizes the solenoid coil to close the contact for the power ckt (battery to starter contact) is: source side of solenoid main terminal (small red wire) -> ckt bkr -> terminal board -> ignition switch -> connects to yellow wire -> back to terminal board -> connects to yellow/blk wire to neutral switch -> back to positive side of solenoid coil terminal (small terminal in solenoid unit) -> to coil and then to ground. That completes the ckt to energize the solenoid coil which will close the main contact for the battery to connect to the starter.

 

[catfish1981]

Re: starter help PLEASE

wiring in a 1987 force 125. all wires seem right...but, turn the key switch to start and nothing. replaced the starter solenoid. when the neutral safety switch is engaged there is 12 volts at the the starter relay on that contact, but the ground contact also has 12 volts on the starter solenoid. If I put a ground wire from starter solenoid to block as soon as I touch ground cable to battery the starter engages. What am I missing? thanks Rick

I have had this problem when the armature was in the process of going out. When you hook cables to it, and turn it over, does it act like its dragging or turning the motor slower than normal? also check the trip switch just to the bottom right of the starter. Im including a picture of this. If it is up, push it down and make sure all connections are good and tight.

 

[TwoFish]

Re: starter help PLEASE

As I understand the problem at the moment is the starter tries to engage when you connect the negative wire at terminal “D”, on the solenoid, to ground.

If this is the case I would start at the solenoid and work out from there. This will isolate the problem to either the switching circuit or the main starter wiring.

SAFETY STUFF. Stand clear of the motor so you don’t get caught in moving parts. Select neutral with the shift lever. Turn the ignition key to the off position.

1. Disconnect your negative battery cable from the battery.

2. Disconnect the wires from terminal ”C”. Insolate them or make sure the don’t touch any metal on the motor causing a short.

3. Try touching the negative battery cable on the battery terminal to see if the starter tries to engage. This is where we find out which of the two starter circuits has the fault. If the starter engages the fault is in the main battery wiring side. If you can connect the battery cable with out the starter engaging we need to look at the switching circuit side.

I would expect the starter would not engage with the above test (based on your previous post) but this way we have checked the circuit.

If the starter did not engage the switch circuit is suppling power to the solenoid causing it to trigger.

If you have a multi meter you can check.

Select Volts DC and place the positive probe on the switch wire that was connected to terminal “C” and the negative probe to a ground on the block of the motor. There should be no current with the ignition key in the “OFF” or “NO” positions. There should only be current when the ignition key is turned all the way to the “START” position.

Photos of the circuit and solenoid.

Post back your results.

Cheers

TwoFish

 

[mrrick555]

Re: starter help PLEASE

I did what you said and what I figured out was... in the on position I have voltage on the key switch on the yellow S wire. if I disconnect the yellow/blk wire that comes to the starter solenoid from the neutral safety switch there is no power on the yellow S wire at the key switch in any position. So the S wire on the key switch is getting voltage from the neutral safety switch. So what does that tell me? The complete circuit is yellow wire on S lug of key switch comes to wiring junction on the block from that junction a yellow/red wires runs to one side of the neutral safety switch, on the other side of the neutral safety switch a yellow/blk wire runs to lug on the starter solenoid. So does the voltage have to be coming from the solenoid?

 

[Jiggz]

Re: starter help PLEASE

I'm not sure where you are taking your readings but do the following and report back. Take voltage reading between the B and S terminal of the ignition sw in the off position. There should be 12V reading (if not voltage see troubleshooting on next paragraph). Turn the key in the "On" position and and there should still be 12V reading. The reason for this is because in the off position the "B" terminal and "S" terminal are not connected but the two M terminals are. In the on position, only the M terminals are disconnected but the "B" and "S" terminals are still open or not connected. The "B" and the "S" terminal connects when you place the ignition switch in the "Start" position, which means there should be no voltage reading between these terminals when in the start position. Referencing the ignition switch, the red wire (B) terminal is the hot wire while the yellow wire and yellow/blk wires are the load wires.

If there is no initial voltage reading between B and S terminals in the first step, check voltage between the "B" (red wire) terminal and a good ground or the negative terminal of the battery, there should be 12V. If there is no 12V trace the red wire back to the ckt breaker in the engine compartment all the way back to the solenoid and battery.

 

[TwoFish]

Re: starter help PLEASE

Hi Rick,

Have you had any luck chasing the problem?

From your first post it sounds like you are getting a current coming up the earth wire to the solenoid.

Does the yellow/Black wire go to terminal “C” on the solenoid as in the diagram?
Is it the only wire on “C”?

Terminal ”D” should only have one black earth wire connected to it.

Terminal “A” should have the positive battery cable and one red wire that goes to the circuit breaker on the charging circuit.

Is this how the solenoid wiring looks?



The yellow/Black wire should not have any power unless the key is turned to start.

The solenoid should not be supplying power to the yellow/black wire.

Do you have a multi meter or a test light you can use?

It sounds like the switch circuit on the solenoid is being supplied with a constant current through the earth wire.

Can you take a closer photo of the solenoid that shows the wiring?

TwoFish