Starter or timing issue???

[iaff284]

Here is the background....Bought a 94 Crownline 225br with a rusted up engine due to the plug being left in it, serial #OF354207. Rebuilt the engine, new fuel pump, and rebuilt the carb. Finally got it started after getting the distributor lined up correctly. Brought it up to temp, oil pressure runs around 40psi at idle, compression after break-in is at 150 psi on all cylinders (not bad considering it was a garage hone and craigslist pistons!). My issue started after if fired the first time. It cranked fine until it started then after that it will crank, grind, and skip on the flywheel. Eventually the engine will start and run fine. I thought it was a starter alignment/flywheel issue but after two days of shimming there was no change. I had noticed that the voltage gauge would jump every time the hour meter ticked and the voltage gauge dropped while revving. I put in a different battery and cleaned the starter circuit connections with no change. Then, I hooked my VOM to the yellow/red wire to check voltage while cranking (10.3V) with the coil wire unplugged and it cranked just fine...verified with multiple attempts. Hooked the coil wire back to the distributor and it is grinding and skipping again. I got it started, checked and it is timed at 10 deg. BTDC per the manual for thunderbolt v. Pulled the coil wire again and it cranks just fine. Could it be a bad knock sensor or ignition module? Any help is appreciated!

 

[Don S]

Re: Starter or timing issue???

Check the starter insides, bet it's all rusty. Battery cables could also be a problem, they need to be clean and tight, both ends of the cables and both positive and negative. The terminal ends of the cables should also be checked.

 

[iaff284]

Re: Starter or timing issue???

Thanks Don for the quick reply! I have two starters one is new and the other is newly rebuilt. I have been inside both of them as the new one chipped a tooth on one of the little gears and cracked the planetary gear. The other one was rusty but has been cleaned up and a new brush plate installed. It does the same with either starter. I cleaned up the battery cable terminal ends and checked resistance (.8ohm) on each cable. Do you think it is a low voltage issue? I dont understand why it does it with the coil wire attached but spins fine without it? Thanks again

 

[Don S]

Re: Starter or timing issue???

Check the firing order of your plug wires (Don't ASSUME, actually trace each one) and see if they are right.

I got it started, checked and it is timed at 10 deg. BTDC per the manual for thunderbolt v.

Are you sure about your timing? Being a 94, you don't have a Thunderbolt V ignition, and am wondering you you put it in base timing since you don't have a TbV.

 

[iaff284]

Re: Starter or timing issue???

I had the exact same thought with the plug wires and have already chased all of them manually and they are in the firing order on the cap for standard rotation. Plus if they were off wouldn't it idle rough with a miss or not at all? Once it is running it runs great. I believe I have the thunderbolt V as I have the knock sensor on the side of the block by the starter and the additional Knock control module. I am thinking it is some kind of ignition advance/timing issue as the only time it happens is when the coil wire is attached?

 

[Don S]

Re: Starter or timing issue???

Plus if they were off wouldn't it idle rough with a miss or not at all?

That doesn't really mean much to me anymore. I have had too many customers come in that say it doesn't run right but sounds perfect at idle, only to start it up and hear a dead miss at idle. I have found plug wires crossed, wires no even on the plug, and even 0 compression on a couple of cylinders because the valves were set improperly. But the engines all sounded perfect ....... to them.

Yes, you have a Tb5 ignition, your engine is also a 95 model. 94 was Tb4 and I just looked at the year of your engine and didn't check the SN at first. Year of the boat is not always the year of the engine and drive. Shame on me for going by year. I know better.

 

[iaff284]

Re: Starter or timing issue???

No worries, I will verify the plug wire firing order tomorrow. I noticed when I went to time it that the light didnt want to read the #1 plug wire. It picked up the #4 wire fine. When I finally got it to read it was sparatic when it would pick up the #1 plug wire. The timing mark never moved so I assumed it was just a poor contact on the incuctive pickup. The exhaust sounds like there is a miss but I assumed it was due to the exhaust and water setup on the muffs. Coukd it be a bad cap or wire issue?

 

[Don S]

Re: Starter or timing issue???

The exhaust sounds like there is a miss but I assumed it was due to the exhaust and water setup on the muffs. Coukd it be a bad cap or wire issue?

Could be cap, rotor, wire, or even the spark plug. Swap plug wires and plugs with another cylinder (one part at a time) and see which one moves the problem.
Sounds like you might be getting close to full tunup time.

 

[iaff284]

Re: Starter or timing issue???

The plugs are new mr43t. I have a new set of wires I can try. That would address the miss but what about the starting issue?

 

[Don S]

Re: Starter or timing issue???

If you get it running right, it might start right.

 

[iaff284]

Re: Starter or timing issue???

message received. any thoughts on the voltage drop while revving

 

[Don S]

Re: Starter or timing issue???

Loose belts, rusty pulleys, defective alternator, faulty wiring,.....

 

[iaff284]

Re: Starter or timing issue???

I will start with the plug wiresand a new cap and see where that gets me. thanks Don

 

[generator12]

Re: Starter or timing issue???

I cleaned up the battery cable terminal ends and checked resistance (.8ohm) on each cable.

I can't claim that this explains any of the symptoms you've described, but I have to point out that a resistance reading of .8 ohms across a battery cable is too high. It should be too low to measure. If you're confident of your ohmmeter in that range, it's worth a double check. If not, check the ohmmeter's zero setting. An actual resistance of .8 ohms on just one cable would limit your starting current to 15 amps...!

 

[iaff284]

Re: Starter or timing issue???

I thought that was a little high myself but then it should affect cranking with the coil wire off, right? It is fine until I connect the coil wire and then it starts the skipping/grinding....There was 10.4V to the solenoid while cranking...it that enough....after I check the wires, cap, and firing order, I will will take another look at the cables...It just seems like it is trying to fire at the wrong time and making the starter skip...

 

[iaff284]

Re: Starter or timing issue???

Thanks for the help guys...put new wires on and double checked firing order. Cleaned the rotor and cap contacts and it definately helped and made it start quicker...but it still occasionally does the kickback and it now has a slight rough idle and vibration. What little fuel is in there is a combination of mostly new and a little old(unknown age). I am going to winterize it for the season, in the spring replace cap and rotor, drain and fill with midgrade octane fuel, and replace the battery cables. Other than cap and rotor any other ignition item need checked /replaced? I will start a new thread in the spring after everything is done if the issue persists. Thanks again for the help..

 

[iaff284]

Re: Starter or timing issue???

Update...winterizing today and decided to check the timing again. So I shut it off, put the light on it and it is at 8* BTDC, I know it should be 10* but I am convinced I have a timing issue...So I keep the light on it and and run it up to 2000 rpm and the timing went to around 4*!!!!! So I am thinking I have the timing gear off the a tooth...I set the timing to 0* in base and it idles rough but seems to start a little easier...so I set it to 8*btdc and it idles up and smooths out but the kickback during starting is back....Could it be a bad ignition module???

 

[iaff284]

Re: Starter or timing issue???

sorry that was 8*atdc the second time

 

[iaff284]

Re: Starter or timing issue???

So I pulled out the service manual (Merc #17) and it describes testing the Knock module and circuit. When I check the Timing lead to ground with my DVOM I get 3.43 volts at 850-900 rpm. Pulled the knock module harness off and checked voltage on the purple wire and get 13-13.5, same at the coil and alternator. So I put the engine back in base timing mode and set the timing to 8* ATDC and the engine starts as soon as you hit the key with no kick back, put it in normal timing mode and the idle is better, no where near as good as 10* BTDC, the timing lead voltage is at 5.5v and it does not sound like there is a miss anymore. Now though it is sluggish to accelerate with occasional backfire thru the carb?

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Starter or timing issue???

with timing 8 degrees AFTER TDC you expect it to make full power???