The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (DON'T make it a sticky!)

KX6D

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For years I've read articles, forums, newsgroups, etc about batteries and most people have no idea what they are talking about. :facepalm: Mind you, I said MOST...not ALL. There are a couple of people who understand the differences between batteries and they do their best to educate the rest of the battery using world, only to be followed by someone who spouts off with more mis-information. :mad:

I've used all kinds of batteries in my line of work. This includes use in the solar industry all the way up to running high voltage DC pumps in a power plant. I've spec'd batteries and I've used batteries...all types and sizes!

Now I wasn't born with this great knowledge of batteries; I asked the experts...the people who actually BUILD them! I'm not going to get into chemistry...let's keep this simple! I hope you find this educational and fun!


BATTERIES 101:
There are basically three TYPES of batteries used in automotive/marine applications...

1. Starting
2. Marine (hybrid) (IT IS NOT A DEEP CYCLE BATTERY!!!)
3. Deep Cycle

1. A Starting battery has one job; to start an engine! In order to do this, it must provide a huge amount of current for a short period of time. Once the engine is running, the generator/alternator takes over the electrical demands of the vessel AND recharges the battery. Crank an engine more than 30-seconds and the starting battery will begin to die. They are usually rated in Cold Cranking Amps (CCA)

2. A Marine (hybrid) battery has TWO jobs! It needs to have enough current to start an engine, and enough CAPACITY to run lights when at anchor or tied to the dock. Have you ever noticed that boat engine crank SLOWER than car engines? Its not the starter....its the battery! Again, once the engine is running, the generator/alternator takes over the electrical demands of the vessel AND recharges the battery. But once the engine is off, the Marine battery needs to power the lights and electronics on board. These are listed with both a CCA and a Amp/Hr ratings.

3. A Deep Cycle battery provides a little amount of current for a LONG time! Deep Cycle batteries are not designed to start a vehicle and most CAN'T! They will power your lights, troll motor, radios, fish finders, and 12V blenders for a lot longer than a starting or marine battery will! These are rated in Amp/Hr. No need for CCA!

So what's the difference between the three?! It all comes down to the internal construction of the cells! Each cell think, compartment) on a battery is good for 2-volts. 12-volt batteries have six cells, and 6-volt batteries has three cells. You connect these cells in series and you increase your voltage by 2-volts each time. Inside these 2-volt cells you have PLATES! (Again, I'm not going to get technical on the chemistry!) You can have a lot of plates or just a few plates. These plates can be thick or thin. The THICKER the plates, the more CAPACITY they have, and the more room they take up! The thinner the plates, the less capacity they have, but you can stuff more in a single cell. Are you with me so far?!

Starting battery cells have a LOT of THIN plates in order to produce MORE CURRENT! But these thin plates run out of juice pretty fast!

Deep Cycle battery cells have only a few plates, but they are THICK and therefor takes a lot longer to discharge. Since you only have a few plates, you can't produce the high amount of current needed to start an engine.

Marine battery cells are thicker than starting batteries, but thinner than true deep cycle batteries; this is why they are called a HYBRID battery! They are just thin enough to squeeze enough in a cell to produce the needed CURRENT to start your engine...and just thick enough to give you some reserve capacity to run your lights etc.

That's all you need to know about the three different types of batteries! What is best for your application is up to you to decide. More on this in a minute! I want to talk about SIZE first!

SIZE MATTERS!
Actually, it doesn't...according to my wife! But I digress... Batteries are sized by GROUP. Again, I'm not going to go in to all kinds of details here. The BCI Group Number will give a physical size and type/placement of the battery post. The higher the Group # the larger the battery (basically). The larger the battery, the more juice you have...but it also weighs more too!

Quick story! A solar powered traffic control company sold trailers equipped with Group 4-D batteries! Whew those babies were big! They sure looked impressive! They are used in big rig trucks and farm equipment. You could even order 8-D batteries for "more power"! Bull! These big impressive batteries were designed to start diesel trucks and not power halogen or LED lights and be recharged by solar panels! Wrong battery for the wrong application!!! Needless to say, they didn't last long and had to be recharged by use of a battery charger OFTEN! FAIL! :facepalm:

Run the biggest battery you can fit, especially if using a Marine or Deep Cycle battery! Make sure they have the right posts for your application. If you have a group 24 and a Group 27 will fit, get the 27 (unless its just a starting battery)! If you can squeeze a Group 31 in there, go for the 31! That's enough about size!

DEEP CYCLE BATTERIES:
A TRUE DEEP CYCLE BATTERY is usually 6-volts! Yes, they make 12V deep cycle batteries, but they still don't have the capacity of a 6-volt battery! I know, you need 12-volts...so buy TWO 6-volt batteries and hook them up in series! The RV industry has been doing this for YEARS! They'll sell you a new RV with a single 12V to keep the price down. But you learn quick that it doesn't last very long. They are more than happy to sell you two 6V batteries! Again, don't buy two 12V batteries and hook them up in parallel...buy two 6V and hook them up in series! Trust me on this!

Not everyone needs deep cycle batteries on their boat! If you have a house boat...then YES! If you troll...YES! If you have a competition ski boat and the engine is always running, then a starting battery is fine! If you like to float around and listen to tunes for a little bit, then a Marine battery is your flavor. If you are going to run two batteries, get one for starting and one for your electronics, BUT RUN A BATTERY ISOLATOR A battery isolator charges both batteries when the engine is running, but isolates them from eachother when the engine is off. This is different from your 1/2/BOTH switches! Running a starting and marine battery in parallel is not a good idea; you can damage your batteries. Choose the right battery for your application!

WET ACID/AGM/GEL CELL BATTERIES:
Wet (flooded) acid are still the BEST batteries you can get! Sorry, but its true. Yes you have to maintain them, but you get the most amount of power and life out of a wet acid battery. AGM (absorbed glass mat) batteries are also acid type batteries and they have their advantages! They don't vent fumes and they don't leak...usually. I use one in my Jeep! They also cost more and don't last as long as a PROPERLY MAINTAINED flooded wet cell. GEL CELL batteries belong in ALARM CABINETS! Gel cells have their advantages, but you CAN'T quick charge them! If you do the gel heats up and moves away from the plates. Then an oxide forms and the battery is destroyed. AGM YES...Gel Cell NO!!! They are different!

STAY AWAY FROM OPTIMA BATTERIES!!! They used to be great, then they sold the company and they are now being made in Mexico. Google is your friend...look up OPTIMA BATTERY FAIL!

The best AGM battery made today is the Odyssey. The Sears Platinum battery is made by Odyssey and $100.00 cheaper. Autozone has a Platinum battery too but it's made by Deka (not Johnson Controls). Its another $100.00 cheaper but not as good as the Odyssey. If you must have the best AGM, Odyssey is the way to go!

Any questions?!

Dino - KX6D
 
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halfmoa

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Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Oh GOD!!!! RUN!!!!
 

tx1961whaler

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Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

For years I've read articles, forums, newsgroups, etc about batteries and most people have no idea what they are talking about. :facepalm: Mind you, I said MOST...not ALL. There are a couple of people who understand the differences between batteries and they do their best to educate the rest of the battery using world, only to be followed by someone who spouts off with more mis-information. :mad:


Yes, this part is true.
 

Fireman431

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Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Mods better close this thread now...:rolleyes:
 

Silvertip

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Oh boy -- those of you using a deep cycle to start your big block motors as well as those starting low to high HP outboards better make sure your engine is actually running because this isn't supposed to be possible. HOGWASH! Deep cycles will, have been, and are currently used to start engines including big block motors without effort. Dual Purpose (hybrids) crank an engine slower than a starting battery!!!!!!! Hogwash again. If that battery has the CCA required by the engine it will spin it just as fast as a starting battery. Not as long perhaps, but as long as the CCA are present there is no difference since the starter cannot tell whether those CCA are coming from a starting, deep cycle or hybrid battery. The FACT is that all batteries at the beginning of their discharge curve start out the same. It is the battery design that alters the shape of the discharge curve. It is true that a starting battery is designed to deliver a high current for a specific length of time after which the voltage drops rapidly. At the other end of the spectrum is a deep cycle which will deliver a much lower current (test spec is usually 23 or 25 amps) for a long period (usually 2 - 3 hours for a group 24 - 27). That does not mean it will not start an engine. It also means that continued cranking on an "untuned" or "balky" engine that a deep cycle would not survive that treatment for any length of time. But it will not be harmed by a 3 - 5 second starter draw on a properly tuned big block motor.
 

Boss Hawg

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Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Hey, the guy has 6 posts under his belt & he found that stuff on the internet----
It MUST be factual :facepalm:
 

Bondo

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Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Mods better close this thread now...:rolleyes:

Ayuh,.... Is this another Oil thread,..??
 

halfmoa

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Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Ayuh,.... Is this another Oil thread,..??

Or a "I'm using antifreeze in my block this winter" thread.
 

coastalrichard

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Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

All I'm getting is tired eyes:cool:
 

sschefer

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KX6D, thanks for the post. I've done the research and made the phone calls.

I could have gone with two Rolls 6v Deep Cycles but I chose two Group 29 Interstate Pro Marines instead. They were lighter and I could bring them back to full faster than I could the Rolls. The later only mattered if I stayed out later than normal and wanted to go out again early in the morning. I have this thing about needing to see that "Full Charge" state before I disconnect the charger and head out.

I noticed you didn't discuss "Charge Cycles". I tried to explain it here once and maybe you read that and decided it wasn't worth trying again.

Also regarding Optima's - Yep the Odyssey seems to be Johnson's new high end focus. I considered them but the charge cycles are just about the same so it made more sense to use their Interestate brand instead.
 

bassman284

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Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

That c&p sounded awfully familiar.
 

KX6D

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Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Wow, thanks for the support! Don't let the 6-posts fool you, I've been around a long time...just not here. I find it amazing that people think post count makes you more qualified. Obviously someone got offended by my post. If you don't like it, don't read it. Thanks!

sschefer said:
I could have gone with two Rolls 6v Deep Cycles but I chose two Group 29 Interstate Pro Marines instead. They were lighter and I could bring them back to full faster than I could the Rolls. The later only mattered if I stayed out later than normal and wanted to go out again early in the morning. I have this thing about needing to see that "Full Charge" state before I disconnect the charger and head out.

I noticed you didn't discuss "Charge Cycles". I tried to explain it here once and maybe you read that and decided it wasn't worth trying again.

Also regarding Optima's - Yep the Odyssey seems to be Johnson's new high end focus. I considered them but the charge cycles are just about the same so it made more sense to use their Interestate brand instead.
Thanks for your reply sschefer! I haven't read your post but will look for it! It wasn't my intention to discuss charge rates here. I just wanted to fill in some blanks on batteries specifically. Also, the Interstate batteries are fine! Everyone should evaluate their specific needs based on power requirements and $$$. I don't own an Odyssey battery either...but that doesn't change the fact that they are currently #1!

Thanks to the rest of you, your replies were entertaining and appreciated!

Dino - KX6D
 

MH Hawker

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Passes out beer and pop corn. :D
 

KX6D

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Passes out beer and pop corn. :D

Love it! ...
popcorn.gif
 

Todd4

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So good I had to read it twice:confused:??? Some one should fix that.

Todd
 

sschefer

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Wow, thanks for the support! Don't let the 6-posts fool you, I've been around a long time...just not here. I find it amazing that people think post count makes you more qualified. Obviously someone got offended by my post. If you don't like it, don't read it. Thanks!


Thanks for your reply sschefer! I haven't read your post but will look for it! It wasn't my intention to discuss charge rates here. I just wanted to fill in some blanks on batteries specifically. Also, the Interstate batteries are fine! Everyone should evaluate their specific needs based on power requirements and $$$. I don't own an Odyssey battery either...but that doesn't change the fact that they are currently #1!

Thanks to the rest of you, your replies were entertaining and appreciated!

Dino - KX6D

Dino, I wasn't referring to charge rates, I was referring to charge cycles which is an estimate of how many times a battery can be charged/re-charged. The average marine battery can handle about 180. The Odyseey and the Interstate Pro's can handle 200. No one I talked to could define a charge cycle as anything other than hooking the charger up and charging the battery back to a full state. They didn't say it mattered if the battery was at 40% or 90% just that a charge cycle could be counted everytime the battery was charged.

You can punch holes in that all day long and say it's just another one of those stupid things that battery manufacturers do to sell batteries. I don't know, I sure am not paying 500+ for a Odyseey PC2250 with 200 charge cycles when I can get an Interstate Pro for half the price and still get 200 charge cycles out of it and very similar RCA's. The only thing to gain is the fact that the Odyseey is a dry-cell and charge time is about 1/3 that of a wet cell or AGM.

I found out quickly that explaining batteries in this forum is fruitless. It's too easy to place personal experience in front of facts becasue of the multiple manners in which they're used.
 

dingbat

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Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

I found out quickly that explaining batteries in this forum is fruitless. It's too easy to place personal experience in front of facts becasue of the multiple manners in which they're used.

As someone who sells products on specifications for the living, I can tell you specs are meaningless unless the product performs to the customer expectations. The best specification in the world goes out the window the day the customer turns the key and nothing happens.

Unless a company guarantees their product against a spec, the spec are meaningless marketing garble.
 

sschefer

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As someone who sells products on specifications for the living, I can tell you specs are meaningless unless the product performs to the customer expectations. The best specification in the world goes out the window the day the customer turns the key and nothing happens.

Unless a company guarantees their product against a spec, the spec are meaningless marketing garble.

I'm very happy to say that I do not buy products using that philosophy. Sure, I get bit once in a while, but more often than not good research saves me money, time and effort. How am I supposed to know if the product even has the slightest chance of meeting my expectations if I don't pay attention to the specifications.
 

fishrdan

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I can tell you specs are meaningless unless the product performs to the customer expectations. The best specification in the world goes out the window the day the customer turns the key and nothing happens.

Unless a company guarantees their product against a spec, the spec are meaningless marketing garble.

Performing to the customer's expectations,,, that has to be a tough one for battery manufacturers. I know several people who buy batteries (RV/boat) every year! They complain that the batteries are junk, so they have to replace them every year. The fact is, they either don't know that they have to charge the batteries periodically and maintain the electrolyte level, or are too lazy to do so. Leaving the batteries sitting for 6-9 months is a death sentence. I clued them in on battery maintenance, but figured it was in one ear and out the other...
 
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