The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (DON'T make it a sticky!)

sschefer

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Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

I agree, I expect the last thing that comes to mind when a person encounters a dead battery is how well it performed in the past.
 
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Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

ive found i can destroy a expensive battery just as fast as i can a cheap one. i do like the basics of the op thread and how the diffrent battery constructions are explained for anyone that has not read a battery thread that can be helpful.
i do not agree with everything said but that doesnt make it wrong it just makes it the op opinion on the subject and everyone is welcome to there opinion. one day someone might design a battery that does everything perfectly until then i will keep at least one back-up system to get me out of trouble when the less than perfect battery fails. my record so far is reducing a wet cell into little pieces in under 30 seconds (turns out that a new starter motor can be bad from the factory and 26 years later i still have a faint scar on the side of my nose to remember that important lesson. on a good note i did get to see what was inside a battery)
 

dingbat

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Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Performing to the customer's expectations,,, that has to be a tough one for battery manufacturers.
Only if your selling a specification, not your product.

I use specifications to separate us from the competitors, not to sell the product. If the specification says the vehicle goes 102 mph and it only goes 101mph, the customer will be upset. If I tell them it goes a lot faster than the competitors, then 101 mph is not an issue.
 

MH Hawker

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Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Glenn I got to see first hand what happens when a big cell in a deep cycle mining battery blows up, the battery has 20 cells at 6 x 6 x 24 per cell, while eating lunch and the machine was on charge it blew, it tossed a 1/4 x 48 x 48 steel lid about 200 feet up in the air.
 

Silvertip

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Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Not to change the "battery chemistry" here but has anyone seen what a LiPo (Lithium Polymer) battery can do when they go bad? Burn down a car, burn down a house, make plenty of scars on the body, and that's from a miniscule (in comparison) 5 amp 30C battery about the size of a couple of Baby Ruth candy bars.
 

spdracr39

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Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Well I hate to be a fly in the soup but my Walmart batteries have always worked fine for me and last just as long as anything else has.
 

halfmoa

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Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Not to change the "battery chemistry" here but has anyone seen what a LiPo (Lithium Polymer) battery can do when they go bad? Burn down a car, burn down a house, make plenty of scars on the body, and that's from a miniscule (in comparison) 5 amp 30C battery about the size of a couple of Baby Ruth candy bars.

No doubt! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5_-eBbDE0s

Wait for the 34 second mark....
 

tx1961whaler

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Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

I have a lab full of molten salt batteries right now. They are active now and are operating at their normal 500 deg. F
 

generator12

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Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Well I hate to be a fly in the soup but my Walmart batteries have always worked fine for me and last just as long as anything else has.

+1. Selection of sizes/configurations is not the best, but they're generally well-built and competitive in price. Most get good reviews from Consumer's Reports as well (FWIW).
 

bruceb58

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Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

There is a lot of good info out there on batteries. The original post isn't going to be one of them.

I like this page:

http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm

I guess I also get a little nervous when the author puts "make it a sticky" in the thread title.
 

KX6D

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Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

There is a lot of good info out there on batteries. The original post isn't going to be one of them.

I like this page:
http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm

I guess I also get a little nervous when the author puts "make it a sticky" in the thread title.
Yea, I should take the sticky part out. A mod could do it too. But, the information is very well written and true; it helps people understand batteries better and some people actually got that. There are still misconceptions as what constitutes a true "deep cycle" battery and its too bad. I had a bank of six NEW Trojan T-125 6V deep cycle batteries. With 2-ga cables, we still couldn't jump start a truck. This is real world. I'm sure we could have started it with a single marine "deep cycle" battery, but as was clearly pointed out, a marine battery is NOT a true deep cycle battery. Throw six in a golf cart and let me know how it goes!

What I find the most amazing is how quick some on here jump on others! Its clear why Bruce did...he had his mind made up before he even read my post! Don't be "nervous" Bruce, be open minded! Thanks for the link by the way, I enjoy furthering my knowledge!

Dino - KX6D
 

Silvertip

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Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

You keep using the term "Marine Battery" and implying that folks consider that to be a deep cycle. Clearly that is NOT what they think. A Marine Battery can be a a) marine starting, b) marine deep cycle, and c) marine dual purpose. Most folks get that.

And you weren't "jumped on" -- you were being "debated" which is what forums are about. Opinions are like butts -- everybody has one. Get used to it.
 

bruceb58

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Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

I had a bank of six NEW Trojan T-125 6V deep cycle batteries. With 2-ga cables, we still couldn't jump start a truck.
That's the fault of the cables and not the bateries. I had 2 6v Trojan batteries in series have no problem starting a GM 8.1L engine in a motorhome. You could have a hundred batteries in parallel and the jumper cables will be the weak link.

but as was clearly pointed out, a marine battery is NOT a true deep cycle battery.
Interesting that Trojan has a 12V marine battery battery that they claim is deep cycle. Maybe you should call them and tell them they have deceptive advertising.

http://www.trojanbattery.com/Products/SCS15012V.aspx

http://www.trojanbattery.com/Products/Marine-RV.aspx

Try these too:
http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/marinedeepcycle.php
They should really have an "open mind" and read your post don't you think?
 
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Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

You keep using the term "Marine Battery" and implying that folks consider that to be a deep cycle. Clearly that is NOT what they think. A Marine Battery can be a a) marine starting, b) marine deep cycle, and c) marine dual purpose. Most folks get that.

And you weren't "jumped on" -- you were being "debated" which is what forums are about. Opinions are like butts -- everybody has one. Get used to it.

dam :facepalm:. i had to read on the forum to work out what a marine dual purpose battery was before i bought mine as i had no idea what a dual was until i read a few posts i considered it had marine wrote on it because it was either a deep cycle or something like a jel filled as it was for "marine". theres pleanty off people sitting there reading the label on the top of the battery wondering if its the right one or not.
 

sschefer

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Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

dam :facepalm:. i had to read on the forum to work out what a marine dual purpose battery was before i bought mine as i had no idea what a dual was until i read a few posts i considered it had marine wrote on it because it was either a deep cycle or something like a jel filled as it was for "marine". theres pleanty off people sitting there reading the label on the top of the battery wondering if its the right one or not.

This is where Dingbat's comments are clearly true. Advertising plays the role of selling a battery to the consumer but it's really the consumers responsibility to know what they actually need. We can hammer adverstised specifications all day long but this particular subject and they way WE want to look at it requires us to do a lot more research than just reading the specs as advertised.

KX6D did the research and in some cases it differs so much from the advertised version that it almost seems untrue. I did a lot of similar research at one time because I realized just how confusing it can be to the average consumer. Both KX6D and me have tried to figure out how to present our findings to this forum but as we both now understand, it isn't easy to convince people that what they think they know isn't always what they should know.

I can't speak for KX6D but from this point on, my definition of a Marine Battery is a battery style that is supposed to be able withstand the shock and vibration that is normally present in boats and not normally present in your everyday car.

From that point on, you, the consumer, needs to understand what it is you expect the battery to be able to do and then consult with a good battery technician to find the best fit. Yep, it's as simple as that. If you have a favorite manufacturer, call the 800 support number and ask questions. Just remember, every tech you call is drawing a paycheck and will tell you that his/her battery is the best. You need to write down the facts and then keep dialing numbers. When you start seeing patterns develop in the facts you can begin to formulate conclusions. Armed with those conclusions you should be able to buy a battery from the company you feel is best and know that you're getting what you need.

What you should never do is come back to this forum and say "I just bought the perfect Marine battery. You should use one just like mine". The final selection you made, if you did it right, was based entirely on your needs and expectations. While the needs may be similar, rarely is the final decision identical because everyones expectations will differ at least some.
 

Silvertip

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Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Buying the right battery (marine or otherwise) has everything to do about chemistry, capacity (the need) , and budget, and less about "expectations". You cannot "expect" to get more trolling motor run time for example from a battery that does not have the capacity to meet those expectations. You cannot "expect" to crank a 8.1L engine unless the battery has the capacity to meet that demand. So expectation - except for longevity perhaps is a non-factor in my view. You don't buy a pair of shoes one size smaller than you NEED with the EXPECTATION that they will be comfortable. You don't by a 1/2 ton truck to haul/tow a load that requires a larger truck. You buy what you NEED (or at least you should). Battery chemistry has little to do with expectations unless you expect that battery to be upside down. Again, it is more about need than expectations. If you NEED a battery that will be tipped over or upside down your choices are clear. In this case you "expect" the battery not to leak if it's placed upside down.

Here are two ways to tell if what you are looking at is a marine battery (be it starting, dual purpose, or deep cycle).
1) Look at the label -- It will say Marine or Marine/RV (followed by starting, dual purpose or deep cycle).
2) The battery will likely have a threaded as well as standard battery cable connections. I've never seen a marine battery that did not have the dual posts but then I've not seen every marine battery ever built.

From that point on through the selection process you had best know what you NEED -- not what you EXPECT. Lastly, you cannot "expect" a sales person to provide the best battery for your application if you forget or neglect to tell him/her that you are also running a 500 watt amp from the battery as well as starting the engine.
 

Tail_Gunner

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Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

The truth about battery's...Yes you will have to replace it someday..Unless you just keep buying new car's or boat's..See how simple it can be...Now your remote control....There is something to have a converstion about...:D
 

sdowney717

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Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

I have 4 USED car 12v batteries in the 37 foot boat.
I also have a gen and three bank charger in case the batteries are run down. Gen will run charger.
So far they have been working. For the main engines, I have a 1-2-both-off switch.
2 batteries are paralleled for number 1 position
1 batt for number 2 position
1 batt at the gen for just starting the gen.

The power from alternators and charger are joined for each bank, wires run thru ammeters then go to the switch connection for 1 and 2 respectively.
Ammeters this way just show a charging condition.
If switch is off, it still charges cause the wire is on the stud before the switch output stud. This way if switch is off say for number 2, batteries still charge. If switch is off for 1 and 2, then of course plugged into shore power still charges batts, but engines wont run. If off, then only power on boat 12v is on the automatic bilge pumps.
I tend to leave switch on number 1 position. This gives me 2 batts to start engines and the third battery for emergency use.

Alternators are the one wire types. If you do what I do, then make sure alternator regulator is getting power from the battery that it is charging. Or it will overcharge that battery. Doing it my way, your alternator is always connected to the battery which likely helps keep it from blowing up. Some people do they run the alternator wire after the switch?
 

KX6D

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Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

You keep using the term "Marine Battery" and implying that folks consider that to be a deep cycle. Clearly that is NOT what they think. A Marine Battery can be a a) marine starting, b) marine deep cycle, and c) marine dual purpose. Most folks get that.

And you weren't "jumped on" -- you were being "debated" which is what forums are about. Opinions are like butts -- everybody has one. Get used to it.
You are 100% correct, I do think people think "Marine Batteries" are "Deep Cycle" batteries; I hear people say it all the time! However, the people here are clearly more knowledgeable and I can see that! I had read a couple of posts about batteries and saw that the OP's didn't appear to understand them to well, so I made a blanket post on battery basics. I certainly didn't mean to offend!

The first few posts were not debates. They were useless. I'm always up for a good debate and a few here wrote good replies. But a couple of them, and you can see exactly who they are, were less than gracious. I did like the post about oil though! Kudos for that one!

Dino - KX6D
 

dwparker99

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Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

Re: The TRUTH about BATTERIES! (make it a sticky!)

+1 on bruceb58's recommendation to get your battery info from a good internet website. The one he recommended is excellent.

Getting a thorough understanding of the three ratings/specifications battery manufacturers/retailers use in rating their battery (Amp Hour Ah, Reserve Capacity RC and Cold Cranking Amps CCA) has helped me the most in choosing a battery. It has also helped in seeing how the retailers manipulate these ratings to make their battery look better although it is the exact same battery their competitors are selling.

One controversy that gets a lot of attention is whether you can use a deep cycle battery as a starting battery. The Op stated it can't be done while others states it does not matter. While I believe a 600 CCA deep cycle will not perform as well as a 600 CCA starting battery as a starting battery it will work. Most recommendations I read is to always oversize the deep cycle battery by 20% when using as a starting battery.

Although I thought it was pretty shallow the first time I read it, the best recommendation I've read is to buy the biggest hunk of lead that will fit your battery compartment and still fit within your budget.
 
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