Timing help for Merc650 1971

Troy_from _Oz

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Sep 29, 2002
Messages
126
Hi there guys, hope you all had a great Xmas.<br /><br />Sorry in advance for the long post, but I think i have to explain the background to this problem first.... ;) <br /><br />I have a 71 4cyl merc650 which has good compression (~130 on each pot). A while back, my distributor packed it in so I had to hunt around for a new 2nd hand one. The new one that I got had a slightly different pickup assembly than the old one, but i dont think thats causing a problem. Anyways, on replacing the dist (after doing link/sync), I had the feeling that I wasnt getting full power/revs out of the motor when i took it out on the water. <br /><br />Incidentally, I had also been struggling to find the cause of a rattle that had been bothering me. As it turns out, the last owner had the starter motor replaced - at which time the flywheel wasnt torqued up properly... hmmm. Evidently, the key sheared last time I was out and have had to have new keway machined into flywheel etc.. on replacing fwheel, there was a little bit of slop @ TDC, so there is a _small_ possibility the dist belt might be one tooth out (although the engine fires up perfectly and runs smoothly - so maybe it isnt a problem).<br /><br />Anyways, back out on the water and still no full power :( as i didnt have full power before doing fwheel - im thinking its not due to dist belt settup. I also noticed that the last owner or mechanic had set max advance screw fully out - indicating lagre max adv setting. But with this setting the motor ran fine. Its just when i do it by the book (with timing light) and set max adv to 38 - (actually i think it may be at about 36-37 at the moment) there is a big loss of power/speed.<br /><br />Finally to my question... Is there any way of setting it by ear? as you can do with a car dist on older engines that are slightly worn and where optimum setting may not be at the book value?? if so how do you do it? is it meant to be done at WOT? <br /><br />Will my advance being set 1-2 deg out make that much of a diff? <br /><br />thanks in advance<br /><br />Troy
 

Kenny Bush

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Mar 24, 2002
Messages
564
Re: Timing help for Merc650 1971

If you set your timing with a light at 28', when your out running the engine at WOT, it will actually be about 30' or so due the high RPM giving you a float of a couple of degrees. As far as setting them by ear............. I don't know..... Some motors will run themselves to death. I have had to back off some models to keep from scoring cylinders. I would stick to the fatory settings with a timing light. If you don't think your flywheel marks are right, get a dial indicator and find TDC yourself. I have never been able to run the thunderbolts hardly at all with a distrubutor belt off a tooth, but check the mark at TDC anyway to rule it out.
 

Troy_from _Oz

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Sep 29, 2002
Messages
126
Re: Timing help for Merc650 1971

Thanks Bushcat, <br /><br />Thats good to hear that they dont run well if the timing belt is off. It starts first go and runs smoothly - so that helps with my confidence that its ok in the department. There was just a bit of play/backlash when i was turning the flywheel to TDC to line up with the marks on the the distributor/trigger (if that makes sense). It was like the f/wheel could rotate slightly before the piston would start to fall away. Ive heard this is sort of normal...?<br /><br />You mentioned setting to 28' for max advance - but by memor, my manual said 38'... any reason for this?<br /><br />Many thanks<br />troy
 

Kenny Bush

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Mar 24, 2002
Messages
564
Re: Timing help for Merc650 1971

Yeah.... 38' I misread your post. I just wanted you to know that once you set it at the specification in the manual, that when running wide open, you get a little more drift. The factory knows this and that is why they have you set it at 38'(if that is what is called out). As far as the "Slop" in the motor, a little is normal due to the play in the bearing journals.
 

Troy_from _Oz

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Sep 29, 2002
Messages
126
Re: Timing help for Merc650 1971

Thanks Bushcat. That makes sense. I tested TDC with a dial gauge to check dist belt. All ok there. My main problem has been that Ive felt the boat hasn't been making the power I was used to. I just thought that since i had changed the dist i had lost power, (I had only measured it on my sounder paddlewheel which is off by a fair bit i think.) Now that I have a GPS receiver ive been out and tested the top speed.... only 22 knots max. This is a 65 hp on a 14.5 foot ali runabout, so i would have expected more... Maybe im looking in the wrong place and should be questioning the prop... <br /><br />Thanks for your help. Much appreciated..<br /><br />Troy :)
 

rexa1925

Cadet
Joined
Jun 22, 2001
Messages
10
Re: Timing help for Merc650 1971

If you check you manual you will see that MERC.<br />put some bad decays on the flywhell and you are <br />run 5 degrees slow on your timing.<br />If you need to know the manual I will get it and<br />tell you the number and waht page it say this.<br />I've been sick so I have not been on lately.<br />Good Luck<br />Rex A.<br /><br />P.S. Ask Trent about this He knows.<br />Thank you
 

Troy_from _Oz

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Sep 29, 2002
Messages
126
Re: Timing help for Merc650 1971

RexA - thanks for the advice. I have read that some engines should be set 5 deg different, but i hadnt read that about my engine thus far.<br /><br />The serial number for my motor is 3157960 (1971 merc 650 4cyl) . I have Seloc book covering mecs from 1965-1983. If thats the book you refer to id be grateful for the page number.<br /><br />Many thanks<br />troy
 

mellowyellow

Vice Admiral
Joined
Jun 8, 2002
Messages
5,327
Re: Timing help for Merc650 1971

Troy, I think you might be chasing a ghost with<br />the timing. back to basics... what is current<br />RPM's at max WOT?
 

Rex

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Aug 12, 2001
Messages
424
Re: Timing help for Merc650 1971

The book is c-90-68647.<br />On page 3E-30.<br />This say 1970 but the s.n. is2804834 and UP.<br />Replce decal with a (A-37-54108)<br />Rex A. H.
 

Troy_from _Oz

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Sep 29, 2002
Messages
126
Re: Timing help for Merc650 1971

Mellowyellow, <br /><br />When timing is set as per the book (notwithstanding the 5 deg shift that Rex is talking about) Max RPM is less than 4000. If i have someone change the max advance while underway, we can get it up a little over 4300 or so. This is being measured with a digital multimeter with inductive rpm pickup.<br /><br />When I replaced the distributor, I also replaced the plug and HT coil leads with automotive type (the resistance ones). Could this also be a contributor to the problem? I have since ordered solid core (copper) leads which i will install to try to get the setup back to original. I also rewired the wiring harness - but wouldnt have thought this would cause the problem.<br /><br />Float was also sticking on upper carb but this has since cleared up.<br /><br />Any thoughts?<br /><br />Cheers<br />Troy
 

Troy_from _Oz

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Sep 29, 2002
Messages
126
Re: Timing help for Merc650 1971

Rex, Is that a mercury manual? I guess they are $$$$$$? Can I just set it to 43deg instead of 38?<br /><br />Thanks again<br /><br />Troy
 

mellowyellow

Vice Admiral
Joined
Jun 8, 2002
Messages
5,327
Re: Timing help for Merc650 1971

cheers Troy,<br />even 4300 rpm's is quite low. I would target 5200<br />to 5500 rpm. could the plug wires be the cause?<br />I am not sure myself? once you install correct, if<br />rpm's don't get up , I would start with looking<br />at a diff. prop perhaps.<br />keep posting, we'll get her right.<br />M.Y.
 

dilligafda

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
May 13, 2003
Messages
315
Re: Timing help for Merc650 1971

This may sound strange, but I had an older I-6 that had a similar running condition and found the belt strechted (slightly)causing the timing to jump around a bit at WOT. Timing was fine at idle and cranking speed, but in real world conditions, there was reduced power. <br /><br />Worth a shot anyway!<br /><br />Good Luck!
 

rexa1925

Cadet
Joined
Jun 22, 2001
Messages
10
Re: Timing help for Merc650 1971

Yes it is.<br />(MERCURY)<br />SERVICE MANUAL<br />MERCURY OUTBOARDS<br />1966 THRU 1974<br />(C-90-68647)<br /><br />I think it cost about $65.00<br />Hope you find what the problem is.<br />Rex
 

Troy_from _Oz

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Sep 29, 2002
Messages
126
Re: Timing help for Merc650 1971

mellowyellow,<br />I'll try to install the new leads on the weekend. I'm aslo trying to chase up a spare prop that the last owner had too. I'll give it a go with the new leads and report back. <br /><br />My current prop is meant to be a 13*17p i think, although when i measured it i didnt think it was 13 in diameter - worn possibly??? The boat is a 14.5 foot ali runabout - so the motor probably weighs almost as much as the hull ;) <br /><br />Rex - thanks for that. Ill try to chase one up. i guess it would be easier with a merc manual.<br /><br />dilligaf - thanks for the idea. I'll check the tension on the belt and see if its worth replacing. Any help is greatly appreciated.<br /><br />Thanks for all the help!!<br /><br />Cheers<br />Troy
 
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