torque

tee-boy

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Mar 29, 2004
Messages
107
Given two engines with same HP; what is the advantage from a boating perspective of the one with more torque? It seems that the 4strokes have more torque than the equvivalent 2strokes.
 

dogsdad

Lieutenant
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Aug 8, 2003
Messages
1,293
Re: torque

I don't know that it pertains to boats, but when it comes to wheeled vehicles, I always associate torque with acceleration and horsepower with top speed---correctly or not.<br /><br />-dd-
 

ZmOz

Captain
Joined
Aug 13, 2003
Messages
3,949
Re: torque

Torque is a measurement of power. Doesn't matter if it's a car, a boat, or a lawnmower, more is better. 4 strokes in general do not have as much torque as 2 cycles. 2 cycles have twice as many power strokes.
 

JB

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Mar 25, 2001
Messages
45,907
Re: torque

Moving to General Outboard
 

jim dozier

Lieutenant Commander
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Jan 8, 2003
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Re: torque

I don't recall the exact formula but horsepower is basically torque times rpm times a constant. If 2 engines produce 100 ft/lbs of torque but the first maintains it at 3000-4000 rpm and the second maintains 100 ft/lbs at 5000-6000 the second will be a higher max horsepower rated engine. However, the first one will possibly pull up a waterskier quicker to a moderate speed than the second because that same 100 ft/lbs of torque is accessible at a lower and more usable (for water skiing) rpm. Becareful of blanket statements about this engine vs that engine type until you see a graph of its torque and horsepower. Also, there is a significant difference between an engine that has a very peaky torque curve that briefly touches 100 ft/lbs at 4000 rpm and an engine that has a flat torque curve with 100 ft/lbs from 2500-4000 rpm. Both will have the same max horsepower but the second engine will have a broader and more usable horsepower and torque curve.
 

Dhadley

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Feb 4, 2001
Messages
16,978
Re: torque

Excellent question!<br /><br />Think about what jimd wrote.
 

Mercury140-I6

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Nov 6, 2003
Messages
339
Re: torque

I was always told that horsepower got you there (At any speed), but it was torque that kept you there (At that speed).<br /><br />Is that correct?<br /><br />Craig
 

ZmOz

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3,949
Re: torque

Originally posted by Mercury140-I6:<br />I was always told that horsepower got you there (At any speed), but it was torque that kept you there (At that speed).<br /><br />Is that correct?<br /><br />Craig
Other way around. A ricer's turbocharged Honda might have 180hp and make it to 130mph, but it will take them forever to get there. Put that ricer up against a carbureted 350 chevy that also makes 180hp, it will win every race, even though the top speed is the same.
 

Bass Runner

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Apr 2, 2004
Messages
746
Re: torque

4 stroke will give you a bit more of a hole shot but 2 stroke will by far give you the best top end you just can't get the revs out of a 4 stroke to many moving parts to fly out of it. This is not from personal experience just read it somewhere :D
 
D

DJ

Guest
Re: torque

Torque is quite often, not always, a function of displacement.<br /><br />Torque gets you going, horsepower keeps you there.<br /><br />A high torque rating, at low rpms, will allow an outboard to swing a larger diameter prop and still have good performance.<br /><br />The four strokes of today suffered a little bit because of the low amount of torque at low speeds or on dead stop acceleration. Remember, most of these are four valve per cylinder, relatively small displacement engines. Their peak torque is going to be at a higher RPM-typically. The four strokes have been somewhat of a challenge to prop correctly because most people setting them up still think like they are propping a 2-stroke. Also, the prop selection has been limited, in some cases.<br /><br />With all that said, a two stroke engine will out accelerate a four stroke (all perameters being the same, cid, gear ratio, etc.) due to higher (quicker) torque rise.
 

Mercury140-I6

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Nov 6, 2003
Messages
339
Re: torque

A little off subject, but I thought I would share it with y'all.<br /><br />A friend of mine has a 1999 F-350 Crew Cab Dually Powerstroke. 4" exhaust, Jake Brake, he got the chip programer and we set it to "Extreeme" last Saturday. the programmer also has a 0-60 and a 1/4 mile test. We didn't do the 1/4 mile test casuse of a few factors, but the 0-60 came out at 9.9 seconds. That's an 8000# + truck. I think that he could keep right up with my 93 Mustang till he ran out of RPM's. I was pretty impressed with it.<br /><br />Craig
 

MajBach

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
564
Re: torque

Other way around. A ricer's turbocharged Honda might have 180hp and make it to 130mph, but it will take them forever to get there. Put that ricer up against a carbureted 350 chevy that also makes 180hp, it will win every race, even though the top speed is the same.
No, it's you that have it backwards.<br /><br />It's a myth about torque gets you going, HP keeps you there AND visa versa. A car engine has no idea what speed it is going or how fast it is accelerating. It only knows the resistance placed on it. That comes from one of two things: inertia and friction(rolling and air resistance as well as from internal components). <br />Accelerating a car/boat from 0 - 60 for example may require the same amount of force to overcome inertia as the force required to overcome friction while maintaining 120. The difference is the force being produced from zero to sixy is more than the car requires hence it accelerates. At 120, the force required to keep it at that speed is the same. 'Course, these numbers are just as an example.<br /><br />The differerence, and hence all the confusion and complete miscomprehension is that there are two major variables when we're talking about automobiles and just about every application for an engine: The engine rpm changes (in response to an unblanced force, and as it does, the torque produced does, because of inhernet design as well as physics and chemistry). The other factor is that there is a transmission, even in an OB. The only place where we're concerned about the torque is at the place where it is put to use - prop or wheels. The torque of the engine is altered becasue of gearing. This obviously is especially true in say a 5 speed transmission. No one has to convince you that in 1st gear, you accelerate at say 3000 rpm much faster than in 5th gear at the same rom. The engine is producing the SAME amount of torque/hp in both cases. BUT, the torque at the wheels is much greater, even though the hp is the same. This is not to say that if you put an infinite amount of gears in a transmission that you will get a proportionaly increase in acceleartion. We are limited to engine redline for one. So, in first gear of say 100 gears, you would move an inch before having to shift. But even if an engine had in infinate redline and a perfectly flat torque curve (resulting in a linear rise in hp), you still can only accelrate the car so fast. This is a function of the torque produced, since torque is THE measure we use to define how powerful an engine is. Be sure to realize the distinction. We could pull a 100 car freight train using a spring found in a swiss watch IF we geared it right. You might have to wind the watch a billion times and the train may only move an inch over the course of a year, but the torque produced at the final drive gear would be the same as that of a 200 ton locamotive. So why does the locamotive do it so much faster? Horsepower. It produces the same amount of torque (at the final drive gear) but it can do it a million times faster. The reason for this is becasue the torque coming directly off the engine is so much more to begin with. Thus it can spin a gear faster and hence you arrive at its horsepower (torque x rpm). Becasue there is a standard defining one horsepower, it is hp that is conventionally used to calcualte acceleration, once all other variables are factored in.<br /><br />It is true the horsepower IS a function of torque. In somewhat simple terms, it is the twisting force any engine produces with time factored in - in this case, engine rpms. To get purely technical, hp is a measure of energy expended, not produced. Even a lightbulb can be measured in horsepower for this reason.<br /><br />Want proof? Compare a diesel engine to a regular gas engine. They often have twice the amount of torque for the horsepower produced as a gas engine - a result of a 20 to 1 copmpression ratio versus half that in a gas engine. This translates into much higher efficiency. Again, force produced with less energy expended (hp). Why are they [diesels] terrible to race with? This torque is produced at low rpms, so at hi rpms torque is comparatively low and thus so is horsepower.<br /><br />General statements like who would win a race are almost impossible to pass off as a general rule off thumb simply becasue the are too many factors to consider. Displacement, cylinders, 2 or 4 stroke, carburetion are the most obvious reasons.<br /><br />It really is a difficult concept to grasp. If you really want an accurate description, you have to consult an accredited textbook and forget about the plethora of 'opinions' that you find on the internet. Although, I have seen a few websites that do a good job of explaining all this, most do not as they are based upon word-of-mouth and all out assumptions.
 

ZmOz

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Aug 13, 2003
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3,949
Re: torque

MajBach - That is NOT a myth. Like I already pointed out - two cars that have the exact same HP and weigh the same - one with a 4 banger and one with a V8 - the V8 will win every single time. It will also have a shorter quarter mile time. This better acceleration comes COMPLETELY from the torque. More torque is what "gets you there". This is why serious drag racers build big huge 500+ cubic inch engines. You can probably get 1000HP from a Honda engine if you build it right, but again, the one with the most displacement (and thus more torque) will be faster.
 

Dhadley

Supreme Mariner
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Feb 4, 2001
Messages
16,978
Re: torque

See tee-boy?<br /><br />What a good job. The Mods should promote you!
 

MajBach

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Jun 21, 2003
Messages
564
Re: torque

ZmOz:<br /><br />In your example, you imply two engines of equal HP but a different number of cylinders being the only difference between them. This would suggest that the four cylinder has larger disp. per cylinder (double) - it would have to if you want to compare apples to apples, right? Any idiot can see that a 'bigger' engine is going to develop more 'power', otherwise we would all have RC motors under our hoods. In your next post, you state that top fuel dragsters are built with large displacements becasue thats where the torque comes from. But if you are going to compare apples to apples, i.e. two engines with EQUAL dispplacement, as I stated in my post this is simply not enough to make generalizations about engine performance as factors such as bore and stroke, redline all have to come into play as they change torque curves and peak HP signifcantly. Any other comparison of engines is simply biased.<br /><br />Why don't we say out loud what most are probably thinking: your statement is based on your real life biased of American cars over imports. You probably can't stand it when you see some good old boy in his huge V-8 truck (likely yours) get dusted by some jap scrap toy box with an engine half size that whines like a turbine the in a car that's one third the weight. Apples to oranges - duuuuude.<br /><br />Sorry to dent your misplaced old-fashioned unenlightened ego by suggesting that the good 'ole domestic ball-crushing brute power of a GM V-8 will NOT always reign superior to that of any 'rice' import, but in a nutshell, you simply do not know what you are talking about [again].
 

ZmOz

Captain
Joined
Aug 13, 2003
Messages
3,949
Re: torque

MajBach - I'm simply using that as an example. You can't compare the same engine because they are the SAME, there is nothing to compare. I say bigger displacement over smaller becuase bigger displacement engines allways have more torque. You can't have two of the same engine with the same HP and different torque numbers. But what I'm trying to tell you is that torque IS "what gets you there" and that is not a myth.
 

Hooty

Rear Admiral
Joined
Oct 2, 2001
Messages
4,496
Re: torque

I use ta know all that stuff.<br /><br />c/6<br />Hooty
 

Dhadley

Supreme Mariner
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Feb 4, 2001
Messages
16,978
Re: torque

Once I found out my 140 looper pushed my race boat 8 mph faster (and quicker) than my 140 crossflow in the 1/4 mile, I quit worring about it.<br /><br />Wait until somebody brings up something about the same bore size with a different stroke....
 
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