trim cylinder question

[mklearl]

chrysler 700 skier 70 hp 1979. I've been adding oil to my tilt/trim regularly. I couldn't find a leak anywhere. Recently found the leak... I believe it is called the trim cylinder. There are 2 pistons which makes the motor go up and down. No problems there. There is a third cylinder that looks like it goes in and out, but only when the motor is most of the way down. Oil is coming from this shaft. Looks like there is a seal or something that has gone bad around this shaft. Can the seal be replaced or does the entire trim cylinder need to be replaced.

Thanks.

Number on the cylinder is 449545-2

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: trim cylinder question

One of the long cylinders--the right or starboard side is the tilt cylinder. The other is a shock absorber. The short cylinder with the pentagonal head and five screws is the trim cylinder. If it is leaking from around the ram, you must look closely and determine if the ram is scored or the internal O-ring is failing. If the ram is polished with no scoring, then the O-ring is bad.

If the ram is scored, then it must be replaced along with the O-ring.


To replace the O-ring, you must remove the pentagon cap. You must use a 12 point 1/4 inch socket. Trim cylinders are almost always in the water and almost always have corroded bolt holes. Very likely at least one of the bolts will snap. So use a lot of penetrant before trying and use heat while trying to remove the bolts. This will destroy the large O-ring sealing the cap to the body so be prepared to buy one of those too.

If you can live with the leak, do so. Otherwise contact RRitt with a PM. I don't think parts are available anywhere else.

 

[RRitt]

Re: trim cylinder question

in the center of the cap is an aluminum retaining piece. For all intent it is just a big and thick aluminum washer that goes over the piston shaft and is tacked into the cap. It is about 1/2" wider across than the piston shaft and fits into cap with about 1/32" recess.

Is your retaining washer still there? If so, then you might be able to fix your cylinder. If not, then you should start hunting for a replacement trim cylinder with housing and cap.

Assumming it is there - look for white powdery residue. Have you been using your boat in Bradenton for long? That white powdery residue is salt water corrosion. If you have much of it then you should learn to live with your trim system until you find a complete replacement off ebay, craigslist, etc. If you do not have any white residue and your trim cylinder still has the centering ring then a rebuild might be worth undertaking.
Rebuild Kit Chrysler Force Power Trim and Tilt Cylinder Seal Kit | eBay

 

[mklearl]

Re: trim cylinder question

No residue. I just bought this kit... I'll give it a shot. Everything seems to be in tact. Just leaks oil right out of that cylinder when compressed. The shaft is smooth. Hopefully I'm lucky on this one. We'll see. I'll keep you posted. Thanks again.

 

[glennkil]

Re: trim cylinder question

Just rebuilt an older style trim cylinder with a 4 bolt cap and it all went well. The shaft was scored though and I needed to replace it. The piston shaft actually screwed into the head. Agree with it being underwater because mine spat out a lot of it afte taking one of the feed lines off. I actually replaced the piston shaft and the cap which seemed to have a type of copper scraper in it which had also been chewed out by the scored shaft. Good luck.

 

[mklearl]

Re: trim cylinder question

New problem. Of course, 2 of the 5 bolts snapped off. I can't get enough space in between the motor and the bolts to drill them out. I'm trying to remove the whole trim cylinder so I can get at it. It looks like I should just be able to take off the nuts on either side of the cross brace, tap the cross brace out and the trim cylinder should come right out. I took the nuts out, but couldn't free the cross brace. I don't want to hit it too hard, but it seems like it should work. Anyone have any experience removing the trim cylinder? Thanks

 

[RRitt]

Re: trim cylinder question

New problem. Of course, 2 of the 5 bolts snapped off. I can't get enough space in between the motor and the bolts to drill them out. I'm trying to remove the whole trim cylinder so I can get at it. It looks like I should just be able to take off the nuts on either side of the cross brace, tap the cross brace out and the trim cylinder should come right out. I took the nuts out, but couldn't free the cross brace. I don't want to hit it too hard, but it seems like it should work. Anyone have any experience removing the trim cylinder? Thanks

you will have to take the housing off motor. In extreme cases, a sawzall with thinnest blade can be used to cut the shaft. This, however may cause you to need an aluminum backing plate between engine and transom. If the trim housing is too loose it can kick up under load, eventually damaging transom and hinge bracket.

once the housing is off, you need to center drill the snapped bolts with 1/8" carbide bits. Increase bit size to 7/64. then cut two vertical slices into the remaining SS shell. Punch out the wedge and spray in aluminum screen door lubricant. The remaining shell should come out with screw extractor. or - just buy a good used Michigan-Idaho trim housing off ebay.

 

[mklearl]

Re: trim cylinder question

I'm afraid I'm not exactly sure what you mean. There are 2 long braces one on top that goes through the top of the tilt cylinder and the shock absorber. The one on the bottom goes through the cylinder, shock absorber, and the tilt cylinder in the center. It is just a long, metal shaft that is threaded on both ends. There are nuts on both ends. I take the nuts off the bottom, and should be able to tap the shaft out, thus freeing the trim cylinder, no? I got the cylinder cover off, but am trying to dismantle the rest so I can get at the stripped bolts. I will try to get some pictures up.

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: trim cylinder question

As I said above, you are likely to snap at least one bolt and if you could live with the leak, to just keep adding oil. Now : Given that the bolts were corroded, the transom clamps are also corroded and gripping the stainless bar tightly. If you want to try hammering it out you must use a brass or aluminum drift otherwise you will mushroom the end and deform the threads. I have had these so tight that no amount of hammering and no size press would take them out.

At this point, your best course of action would be to dismount the engine from the transom and soak all the points where the bar passes through aluminum with a good penetrant for several days with repeated applications. Even that is not likely to work. You can try heating the transom clamps but the bar is probably stuck inside both cylinders and the trim cylinder body. The long cylinders are mounted on plastic bushings, but the aluminum corrodes and grips them so tightly that it is almost as good as welded.

One trick I sometimes have success with is to remove the steering tube and engine tilt bolt (with the engine dismounted) I then hammer the transom clamps back and forth if I can. Sometimes this breaks the corrosion enough that the clamps can be removed and that makes it easier to drive the bar out of the trim cylinder.

The top bar is also probably stuck inside both the cylinder eye and the swivel yoke mounting.

Like RRitt said: Sometimes the only way to free it is to cut the bar inside the transom clamps and buy a used complete unit. Without actually seeing the unit, but from your description, I would find a complete TnT unit mounted on the engine front pan and replace everything. This would require supporting the engine and disconnecting all three motor mounts but it will in all probability be faster and less aggravating. I will post a couple of photos tomorrow.

 

[mklearl]

Re: trim cylinder question

Ouch, not what I wanted to hear. I think I will be patient at this point and try the soaking method. My saving grace may be that this system is not as old as the engine. I remember the guy telling me when I bought the boat 2 years ago that he installed the system. Hopefully it is not stuck so bad that it cannot be freed. I let you know how things work out. Thanks again for the input.

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: trim cylinder question



Here are a couple of photos. The last one is a trim/tilt system that at first glance looks OK but is terminally stuck. Note how the hex on the transom clam has twisted off. This will take a lot of work to disassemble. You can more or less see what you are in for.

The first two photos are a new body for the trim. I have used it so you can see what the back looks like. Note that the mounting bar goes through six webs--that is why it is so difficult to drive out if there is corrosion. This is NOT for sale.

The other two photos show the front plate--I forget what they call it-- to which the engine leg mounts.

If at some point you decide you want to replace everything, I have about 3-4 of these front plates. Send a private message if you want one in the future. I can give you a good deal but shipping will kill you so if at all possible, try to find components locally.

 

[RRitt]

Re: trim cylinder question

Ouch, not what I wanted to hear. I think I will be patient at this point and try the soaking method. My saving grace may be that this system is not as old as the engine. I remember the guy telling me when I bought the boat 2 years ago that he installed the system. Hopefully it is not stuck so bad that it cannot be freed. I let you know how things work out. Thanks again for the input.

the problem is that the force engine was not designed with salt water anodes. the trim system should have dedicated zinc anode for saltwater. The main anode is hidden behind the prop. Even when healthy it struggles to offer saltwater grade protection to the trim system. The plastic bushings and stainless steel mounting shafts just end up concentrating too much galvanic into too small of an area. A slab of zinc and a SS bonding strap would help. Most outboards started doing this in the early 90's. The mercury anchor bracket anode is a healthy sized flat slab of zinc for about $8. Worth adding if you're in salt water.

any way, if you have much of that white powdery residue then getting shafts out can turn into a 16-32 hour adventure. With Idaho systems and ebay winter prices you can often pick up perfectly rebuildable systems for under $200. That works out to less than $10 per hour. So I always avoid getting stuck in a time trap. If it comes free then great. If not, then I cut my losses and move on.

 

[mklearl]

Re: trim cylinder question

As I often say, especially when I'm working on my boat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day! 48 hour soak with 2 cans of blaster and a 3 lb sledge and it came out surprisingly easy. Drilled, tapped and put back together... no problem.
Thanks for all the input. I think it's no secret that I'm not a marine mechanic by any stretch of the imagination. I work on tug boats and have an engineer to fix all the things that break lol! He's told me to throw my engine away and get a new one... new one or not, I like to learn how to do things and fix things. Before I bought this boat 2 years ago, I didn't know the first thing about outboards. With the help of this forum and with a lot of trial and error, I think I've come a long way. I smile every time i turn the key and it fires right up in less than a second! Not bad for a 35 year old engine.

So thank you everyone for the help. Not just with this post, but on my other posts and the entire forum in general... My learning would not be as easy or as much fun without this website!

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: trim cylinder question

Glad to hear that the first step of soaking in penetrant worked. As you said: I'll take luck over skill any day.