Trim leak down isolated to valve body

[SkiDad]

First of all I wanted to say I'm very sorry to hear about RRitt passing, didn't realize until i did a little searching recently. May he Rest in Peace.

I have a 1985 Force 125 and when I got it 3 years ago the tilt had a very slow leak down but trim has been fine. Toward the end of this season I noticed that now the trim is leaking down too after a few minutes.

I took a look at the FAQ at: http://forums.iboats.com/forum/engin...trim-drop-help

So I capped the end of the tilt line and it didn't move at all in 30 minutes. Then I did the same thing with the trim line and it didn't move either. So I know it's the valve body, but I see that DB has the made in China version for around 75 bucks. http://www.dbelectrical.com/p-11784-...135-force.aspx One question i have is that it says 1986 and newer but also says all Chrysler. I'm guessing they are all the same but I wondered my they said 1986 force and up. My clymers says there are 2 versions of the pump but that might just be the electical part - does anyone know if all the valve bodies are interchangable ?

RRitt said that the China version wouldn't hold up for skiing and we ski hard every time out.

My 2nd question: i have is i found this one the is more money on a site that RRitt mentioned called Basic Power - do you think this is a better one or just the same thing - it has black on the top that is why i question if it is maybe an american made model. http://bpi.ebasicpower.com/pc/APIVB112N-4/OB-CHRTRIM

also, do you think there is anyone else that rebuilds these valve bodys - I don't want to try it myself though. I thought I would ask now b/c my boat is going to the indoor storage on saturday :frown-new: I could take the valve body off if there is somewhere to send them.

 

[Jiggz]

No Title

You should try rebuilding it yourself. It is really not that complicated. Just remember, DO NOT DISASSEMBLE THE PUMP UNIT! Instead just disconnect the 4 tube connections (might have to loosen the other ends but not disconnected) and dismount the valve body by removing the four (down facing) screws. There is an o-ring that seals the VB to the pump reservoir. You will need to purchase the rebuilt o-ring kit and also o-ring for the spool valves (you will need two, one for each spool valve). There are basically two types of valves inside the VB, spool valves and one shuttle valve. Here's a pic from PNW with labels.

The o-ring for the spool valves I believe are not included in the o-ring rebuilt kit (available at *bay). Instead PNW, suggested using the seal kit for a needle valve See pics. I've provided a link on how to do the step by step procedure from previous thread.

http://forums.iboats.com/forum/engi...outboards/659768-88-force-85hp-trim-drop-help

 

[SkiDad]

i might try it

is this the o ring kit you are referring to on the Bay ? and do i need both types of carb kits in your pic or do either work ?

 

[Jiggz]

As for the carb kit, either or but not both. The attached kit is for the tilt and trim cylinders but not for the valve body. Personally, I used the Viton O ring kit (from Harbor Freight) for less than $11 for 108 pieces. With the viton kit you can use it for the two outer rings on the spool valves and also on the shuttle valves. There is a needle valve inside each spool valve and you will use the carb needle seat o ring. While at HF might as well get the panel pliers for opening the spool valves.

 

[SkiDad]

thank you Sir

 

[Frank Acampora]

The check valves your engine has are held in by internal circlips in the valve body. As far as I know, these valves are NOT rebuildable. They are crimped shut and any attempt to disassemble them will destroy them. I have looked in many hydraulic supply houses for these valves and as yet have not found them.

If you remove the circlips and activate the pump the valves should blow out of the valve body. Since the down check valves get a lot less wear than the up check valves. there is a chance that by reversing the valves you will get a bit more life before you need to replace the valve body/pump.

Unless you can find a source for the check valves, the best solution is to buy a pump with the screw-in check valves because these are rebuildable. If you do find a source for these valves please post and share with everyone.

 

[SkiDad]

Frank, so you are saying since mine is a 1985 it's a different style then the others have been fixing ?

is this the circlip you are referring to ?



I know they baby is pretty much a Chrysler and that might be why they say 1986-1991 on the Chinese pumps... do you think any of those will work to bolt up or am i out of luck ?

 

[Frank Acampora]

Yes, that is the circlip. and yes, it is a different style ONLY in the check valves. The same valve body/pump was used right up until Brunswick changed to the Mercury single ram system. If the Chinese pumps have the same pipe arrangement and bolt to the reservoir with four screws, then yes, they will fit. In reality, anything that fits an early to approximately 1991 or 1992 Force will fit your system. They did not change the tilt/trim very much at all until they went to the Mercury single ram system

however, you still must be careful. Somehow I picked up a complete TnT system that has a very narrow motor and a single piece manifold with all four hydraulic lines coming out of the bottom. I don't know what year it is nor if it actually came off a Force. All I know is that I was able to adapt it to my Chrysler 90.

 

[Jiggz]

No Title

I actually have the circ clip style like yours (see pics) and yes, if you are not careful in separating the spool valve, you can actually damage it. This is the reason I came up with the auto panel clip pliers for separating it without destroying it. This will give you access to the needle valve inside where you will replace the valve seat to do the repair. And yes, mine works perfectly without leak down after replacing all o-rings and most importantly the needle valve seat o-ring inside the spool valves.

 

[SkiDad]

I had to put my boat away - getting too cold up north. Anyhow, I'll have to revisit this in the spring. I did find out from reading some of RRitts posts that API makes a good replacement part still (VB112N-4) if I can't rebuild my own - i have contacted them and got this response:

"The components for the VB112N-4 are imported from Taiwan and we assemble and test the valve body in our factory. We are located in Fort Lauderdale, FL and we have sold thousands of the VB112N-4 valve bodies. This is a very high quality part. [FONT=arial, sans-serif]All of our parts come with a 1 year warranty."[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, sans-serif]he says they are not the same as the Chinese built part and RRitt also confirmed this is his posts. These valves are around 250.00[/FONT]

 

[Jiggz]

That is not a bad option to just replace the VB with a new quality one. Personally, I would still try to repair the old one and have the option of buying a new one. You get the experience and the know how on repairing these units. And the best part, it costs less than $30 for parts and tools to do it.

 

[SkiDad]

Thread revive...OK so i will be getting my boat out in the next few weeks. I bought the Viton O-Rings and also the panel pliers from Harbor Freight. And 4 of the Briggs carb kits o-rings for the check valves (I got enough to do 2 pumps) I'm going to try mine 1st and if it works I may do my Dad's pump too - his hasn't worked right in 10 years.

i do have a question about that check valve o-ring - which way do you put it on ?? - there is a cup on the one side. below is a pic of 2 of them - the top one has the cup facing up.

also when I'm done how do I compress the valve body back together - will it just snap together ? do i compress it with a block of wood ?



PS - do I need that washer to support the pliers when removing ? About what size do I need to dig up ?

as always... THANKS !

reference: http://forums.iboats.com/forum/engi...outboards/659768-88-force-85hp-trim-drop-help

 

[Jiggz]

It's been awhile since I did the spool valve but if memory serves me right, the seat valve o-ring goes in with the flat surface facing out. As for using a washer to separate the spool valve, it is necessary to protect the shoulder of the valve and the fact that the panel pliers bottom jaw has wider opening than the shoulder of the valve. The washer was a 1/2" hole washer and slightly bent to make it rest on the valve shoulder. Caution, it doesn't really take a lot of force to separate the valve so make sure you catch all the internals just in case.
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[pnwboat]

To add to what Jiggz has stated, to re-aasemble the spool valve doesn't take a lot of pressure. You can gently tap it back together being careful not to damage the soft aluminum material. A small plastic faced hammer or something similar will work.

 

[SkiDad]

Hi Guys, I'm having a heck of a time getting the spool valves out. Took me an 1/2 hour to get the clips out b/c i had to file the tool i had to fit the smaller holes of the clip. But I cannot get either spool out - i can get the spool valves to move out to about even with the edge but I can't get either to pop out - i pretty much destroyed a block of wood trying.

any ideas ?

 

[SkiDad]

OK - i got it off - a neighbor had a compressor I wanted to try that but no one was home today. I let ya know how it all comes out

 

[Jiggz]

No Title

Yes, high pressure air is the trick with the aid of a pointed air blow gun. You will need to plug the outlet connections and also with your fingers the other holes on the valve body. See red arrows on pics. The problem is I do not remember which hole will blow on either side spool valves. So make sure one spool valve is kept locked with the lock ring to prevent from accidentally blowing it away. Try one hole first and if that doesn't work try the other hole. Use short quick burst of high pressure (around 50 PSI) while covering the other hole. It should get pushed out unless you have some burrs preventing it. After one spool valve gets pushed out and also with it the shuttle valve, remove the remaining lock ring and then using a wooden rod just push out the remaining spool valve. No need to use air anymore. Remember aim the first spool valve you are trying to push out with a rag to catch all the parts.

 

[SkiDad]

OK - i got all together last night. That was the longest most complex thing I've done to my force. I'm sure will go smoother next time.

Well anyhow - i still have a VERY slow leak down on tilt but the trim held perfect all night long I'm fairly sure this will be good on the water b/c trim would drift last fall just sitting on the trailer. I can live with only the trim working 100% as that is what I care about most - but i thought I would have solved both problems.

I replaced all 4 o-rings on the spools, even though they looked like new and were flexible. When I compared the sizes of the old o-rings - one seemed slightly larger - I'm guessing this is just due to stretching and just used the same A012 on both sides. I did replace the check valve rubber on both with the needle and seat kits (one side was really squished - the other side almost seemed gone - just little fragments left.

the only thing I didn't replace was the shuttle valve o-ring - seemed like it was going to be hard to get off and I didn't want to mar it up - but now I'm wishing that maybe I did - but maybe that has nothing to do with it.

so do you think the valve in the front is the one that holds the engine or is it the one in the rear - I put the nicest looking one in the front.

Thanks again for all the help and pointers.

 

[Jiggz]

If the tilt is the only one leaking, there is a good chance it is isolated to the tilt cylinder itself. Do the leak test again which initially test for the tilt cylinder. This is really easy and if the tilt cylinder is leaking by, it is also an easy fix which is nothing but dismounting the tilt cylinder and then replacing the o-rings. There is even a video on *tube on how to do this. OH BEFORE I FORGET, BEFORE DOING ANYTHING FURTHER MAKE SURE YOU CYCLE THE SYSTEM MANY TIMES TO BLEED IT. If problem persists with the tilt, then do the above as discussed.