Trouble with Craigslist sell

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Nandy

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Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

I still think you ought to just take the guitar back.
Even if the guy does sue you, he'll end up in small claims court, where you'll probably end up giving him back his money anyway.

Save yourself the trouble and just get it over with now.

Let me try again... I did not owned the guitar, I did not show the guitar, I did not get the money from the seller (or from the buyer), i did not give the guitar to the seller.

I did, use my craiglist account to post the guitar, I did got any initial call then pass it to the seller. I got all of the emails and replied with the phone number to call. The buyer met the seller at my place.

Looking back, I even specify in the add that the seller was in NC for a couple days and leaving then....

I should have some photos of the guitar, so of it I recall was of the serial. I have to find them but I think I did delete them as I thought this was a done deal. Again, if the seller does call I should be out of this anyway.
 

jay_merrill

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Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

Just to clarify - who actually received the money and handed the guitar to the guy?
 

Howard Sterndrive

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Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

2 options:

1. refund the money and call one of the other 21 inquiries

2. tell buyer he inspected the guitar b4 purchase and he bought what he inspected - so it's a done deal


or...

3. Refund the money and go take some lessons. Learn some chords and have some fun. Guitar is an awesome way to relax.
 

Nandy

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Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

Just to clarify - who actually received the money and handed the guitar to the guy?

The seller, not me.
All I did was post the guitar in craiglist, tell any serious buyer to call my phone, answer the call and give the phone to the seller. Those interested were givem my address to come and see the guitar.
When the first and ultimate buyer arrived the seller showed the guitar, declined the $100. less offer and handed the guitar to the buyer when he got the money out of the pocket. I even clarify in the post that the seller did not live in NC and was leaving next Monday.
 

Howard Sterndrive

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Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

The seller, not me.
All I did was post the guitar in craiglist, tell any serious buyer to call my phone, answer the call and give the phone to the seller. Those interested were givem my address to come and see the guitar.
When the first and ultimate buyer arrived the seller showed the guitar, declined the $100. less offer and handed the guitar to the buyer when he got the money out of the pocket. I even clarify in the post that the seller did not live in NC and was leaving next Monday.

then, you aren't even part of the transaction...the buyer shouldn't even know your name...how could they sue you?
 

Nandy

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Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

The problem is that he dont have any of the information from the seller. The guy knows my email, phone and address so he is going after me to pressure me ( im guessing here) to release the seller information. Being that the seller is family (by the significant other part of the family) I rather face a judge than get into family bad blood. I know it might sound stupid to some, but family ties are very important to me....

However, if I knew he had scam that guy with prior knowledge of the guitar being fake I would have still not give the number but I wold be giving him hell if he wouldnt call the guy...
 

ne7800

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Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

I personaly would give the seller 48 hrs to contact the buyer then hand over the info myself and tell the buyer NOT to contact me agian
 

jay_merrill

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Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

The problem is that he dont have any of the information from the seller. The guy knows my email, phone and address so he is going after me to pressure me ( im guessing here) to release the seller information. Being that the seller is family (by the significant other part of the family) I rather face a judge than get into family bad blood. I know it might sound stupid to some, but family ties are very important to me....

However, if I knew he had scam that guy with prior knowledge of the guitar being fake I would have still not give the number but I wold be giving him hell if he wouldnt call the guy...


You should give him hell anyway. Family or not, he is using you to solve his problem with the buyer. If it were me, family or not, I would call the buyer, give him the family member's number and tell him that I was out of it. I would also tell him not to call me again.

The problem that you are going to have, even though you have made it clear that you don't feel that you acted as the seller, is that you were the contact point. As a non-attorney, I can only react to legal situations in the context of personal experiences in business, but I have to think that you have more of a connection to the sale than you realize.

Beyond that, I think you have two problems. First, if the guitar really is a fake, and your relative knowingly presented it as a real Martin, there is a reasonable argument that fraud occurred. Whether that would hold water in a court I don't know, but I don't think I would want to find out the hard way.

The second issue is that the buyer could make a claim of being financially damaged, and sue your relative and you in civil court. Once again, I know that you don't feel that you were a party to the transaction, but you must look at this from the buyers perspective. If he is being honest, and thought he was buying a real Martin, only to later find out it is not, its reasonable for him to be mad. Whether you like it or not, he views you as a party to the sale, and he views you as a person who is not being helpful getting his money back. He doesn't have to be right about this - all he has to do is to be mad enough to intiate a lawsuit, and make you argue about the rights and the wrongs later.

You also have to realize that the buyer isn't going to want to chase your relative in NC. The sale took place in your state, in your house, and that is probably a significant issue. Combine that with the fact that you aren't being cooperative, and you end up with a guy that just says, "the heck with it, if he won't tell me where the seller is, I'll just drag Mr. Nandy into small claims court." From there he may simply go to that court, put up a filing fee of about $100, have you served, and you're then in a position of having to defend yourself.

Do yourself a favor, try to get out of the middle if you can, but if you can't tell your relative that he needs to stop worrying about whether you are in his good grace, and think about whether he is in your good graces. I think that you are forgetting that the importance of family ties is not a one way deal.
 

jbjennings

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Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

Well, troubles selling attack again! I have a family member visit about a month ago due to a family emergency. He dont live in this state. He was in need of money and wanted to sell one of his guitars. Since he was visiting I offer to help by providing my email as a mean of contact. After the first email contact I used my phone to communicate with the prospect buyers but I passed the phone to the seller in order for him to answer questions.

Both guitars were posted in Craigslist to see which sell first. One of them was a Martin D. He asked a bit under 600 for it. I thought it was crazy to try to sell a guitar for that much money but I help him list it. I used my email as he don't have one.

My worthless opinion:
1. the owner of the guitar lived out of state and left immediately after the sale.
2. He was in a big hurry to sell a very expensive guitar for a too cheap price, and used you to do the selling, rather than selling it himself from his own home.
3. He asked much more than the price of a cheap used guitar (which you noted in your second comment. But supposedly didn't know it was worth much and didn't know anything about guitars.
4. He took a guitar for trade on a debt and knows nothing about guitars? Why would he want it if he doesn't play? Anyone who plays a guitar knows what a Martin is and that they're very expensive. I can only play a few chords and know what a Martin is. I've played one BTW, and they're worth every penny!!!

All I'm saying is that I think your relative knows more than he's telling you and I feel like your relative used you. I hope I'm wrong.
I first thought that maybe the buyer could be the scammer but it wouldn't make sense. If the guitar really was genuine, then he's already made a big haul just by getting the guitar dirt cheap. THere'd be nothing but big risk in trying to get money from you.
I also agree with Jay. You are partly responsible for this because YOU advertised a guitar for sale that was a Martin that turned out not to be genuine.
I hope you get it cleared up...
JBJ
 

jay_merrill

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Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

I'll say it again - someone needs to take this guitar back and give the guy his money. The deal just isn't worth the potential trouble, or a bunch of legal fees.

As i have read all of these posts, one more thing strikes me. It sounds like you don't doubt that the guitar is a knockoff (fake). If that is true, you should be concerned about doing what is right, not about protecting your relative. Please understand that I am not questioning your honesty, but I do think you need to re-examine your priorities.
 

Nandy

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Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

My worthless opinion:
1. the owner of the guitar lived out of state and left immediately after the sale.

** Yes he did, he was only in the state due to a family emergency. The bottom of the post had a sentence indicating he did not lived in nc and was leaving monday. Not a secret.

2. He was in a big hurry to sell a very expensive guitar for a too cheap price, and used you to do the selling, rather than selling it himself from his own home.

** He has sold way more than his guitar due to bad economy. You assume too much with too little information. He also tried to sell the guitar where he lives but it is a retirement community with almost everyone in tight budget. He did not new about craiglist and dont have internet connection. He offered it to me but the idea of listing it on craigslist was mine.

3. He asked much more than the price of a cheap used guitar (which you noted in your second comment. But supposedly didn't know it was worth much and didn't know anything about guitars.
4. He took a guitar for trade on a debt and knows nothing about guitars? Why would he want it if he doesn't play? Anyone who plays a guitar knows what a Martin is and that they're very expensive. I can only play a few chords and know what a Martin is. I've played one BTW, and they're worth every penny!!!

*** He does plays guitar, who said he didnt. Actually, I do too, but I had no idea that a acustic guitar could cost that much.

All I'm saying is that I think your relative knows more than he's telling you and I feel like your relative used you. I hope I'm wrong.

** Yup, your are wrong...


I first thought that maybe the buyer could be the scammer but it wouldn't make sense. If the guitar really was genuine, then he's already made a big haul just by getting the guitar dirt cheap. THere'd be nothing but big risk in trying to get money from you.
I also agree with Jay. You are partly responsible for this because YOU advertised a guitar for sale that was a Martin that turned out not to be genuine.
I hope you get it cleared up...
JBJ

Jay, I have no idea if it is a knockout, it all depends on who you are going to believe unless I contact Martin myself.

Anyway, I appreciate all of your input. It gave me another point of view of how other people can see the situation. I will give this one a rest and will post a resolution once one is reached.
 

haskindm

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Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

I am not a lawyer and I don't even play one on TV, but I believe that this is a non-issue. The buyer had the opportunity to inspect (and play) the guitar prior to purchase. The buyer was buying the guitar form an individual, not an established dealer. The buyer had the opportunity to ask any questions that he felt were appropriate to ask. It may be different if he bought the guitar based on the description only and it was mailed to him, but he saw it and played it before purchase. Buyer beware. I can't believe that any court would award him anything. Nothing was held back and nothing was misrepresented. The buyer thought he was ripping of the seller by buying a $2000 guitar for $600 and even tried to negotiate for a lower price! If he had any doubts, he had ample opportunity to walk away from the deal! Tell him that you look forward to seeing him in court! Remember, I am not a lawyer, but in MOST cases, common sense still prevails (but there are notable exceptions!).
 

xxxflhrci

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Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

The buyer answered to an ad for a Martin guitar. He shouldn't have to investigate whether it is a fake or not.

I sure wouldn't want to be the middleman in it. Civil court keeps being brought up. The whole time, I've been thinking more along the lines criminal court. It seems the authorities in NC have the same thoughts:

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/1243516/
 

SnappingTurtle

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Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

These types of sales are often called “Auction Fakes”, when done online. Criminal responsibility for selling counterfeit goods over the Internet are prosecuted as "Intellectual Property" theft and responsibility lies with the seller, that is you.

Ignorance of the law, or of the authenticity of what you are selling is no excuse, for breaking the law. It would, if it came to court, maybe help in leniency with the punishment and or fine, if you could prove you acted as a middle man for someone else, and you sold it in the believe it was real.

This is not a “buyer beware” type of sale, no matter how many people tell you it is.

If it is indeed a genuine “Martin”, even one of their cheaper ones, and the buyer just thought he was getting a more expensive model & now wants his money back.

You have nothing to worry about.

You should however, have written, "I don't know anything about guitar's, I am selling it for a relative, and I am not even sure it is a real Martin".

If it is a fake, you do.

You will probably, at the very least have to pay the buyer restitution equal to the purchase price, have to pay a fine for selling counterfeit goods, and you will definitely not get the guitar back.

“Congress has passed laws to protect the value of the intellectual property represented by trademarks. Title 18 of United States Code defines counterfeit marks as a spurious mark that is: used in connection with trafficking in goods or services; identical with, or substantially indistinguishable from, a mark registered for those goods or services on the principal register in the United States Patent and Trademark Office and in use, whether or not the defendant knew the mark was registered; and likely to cause confusion, mistake or deceive. 18 U.S.C. ? 2320”

“There are severe penalties for violation of these laws. First-time offenders found guilty of trafficking counterfeit goods are subject to a maximum penalty of 10 years in prison and a $2 million fine. Repeat offenders have a maximum penalty of 20 years in prison and a $5 million fine. Id. Despite these penalties, counterfeiting is big business. The internet is rapidly emerging as the medium of choice for sellers to sell their goods to unsuspecting customers. The U.S. Department of Justice is actively prosecuting counterfeiting done over the internet.”

Case Law School (Case Western Reserve University), Internet Law Journal


If it is indeed a fake, this is not casual offense.
 

Nandy

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Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

Buyer contacted me. The seller called him. They are working a resolution. Case close, at least for me and so should be this thread.
 

mthieme

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Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

Congratulations.
Glad it turned out.
 

tashasdaddy

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Re: Trouble with Craigslist sell

original poster requested this be closed.
 
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