US Democracy

[txswinner]

Democracy is short lived:<br /><br />At about the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler - a Scottish history professor at the university of Edinburgh - had this to say about The Fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years prior<br /><br />"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship.<br /><br />"The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years,these nations always progressed through the following sequence<br /><br />From bondage to spiritual faith;<br /><br />From spiritual faith to great courage;<br /><br />From courage to liberty;<br /><br />From liberty to abundance;<br /><br />From abundance to complacency;<br /><br />From complacency to apathy;<br /><br />From apathy to dependence;<br /><br />From dependence back into bondage."<br /><br />If this is the flow where are we. I am reading to see what historians think of this opine and where we are. Interested in your thoughts

 

[QC]

Re: US Democracy

I believe we are between the abundances . . .<br /><br />The one thing that I take from this is that history and historians are all about, well, . . . history I don't believe that we are immune from patterns and human nature, but those things don't always lead to the same place. Also, I am perfectly happy to work to keep us between the "abundances" for as long as possible. This country wakes up anytime that someone messes with our abundance, and I am very OK with that.<br /><br />Edit: BTW, txs, this may be one of your most intelligent posts. Thought provoking, but not anger provoking.

 

[JB]

Re: US Democracy

Well, he was as confused as you are, TXS.<br /><br />We are not a democracy, except on the small scale of local governments. We are a representative republic, in which small democratic units elect representatives who in turn govern the republic, select the executives and handle federal business. <br /><br />Individual democratic units (NO?) have come almost full circle. Some even have been bankrupt (CA?), but at the federal level and in some states conservatism checks the headlong rush toward dependency.

 

[txswinner]

Re: US Democracy

JB, You comments are spoken as well as one might expect from a high school government teacher. Would prefer we remove democracy and replace it with representative republic. You are playing with words not with information.

 

[QC]

Re: US Democracy

Hey, I'm pretty sure we have kept our heads above water . . . I don't recall a bankruptcy other than Orange County

 

[txswinner]

Re: US Democracy

QC, Would like to take your compliment but this is simply copy of remarks or an 18th century historian that seem to have stood the test of time and review. Not saying it is fact or agree or disagree, just that it makes on think. And I am doing that so do not give up on me starting a debate (new word for arguement/anger provoking, you know PC and all).

 

[QC]

Re: US Democracy

I knew it wasn't you. Yup, debate better. Seek clarity not agreement . . . My .02

 

[txswinner]

Re: US Democracy

QC, if Tyler's description of the flow of this government (PC) has a basis in fact and I look at it based on my limited knowledge of world then I am not far from you on where we are. <br /><br />I think the abundance era for the general population of our country has just past.During the labor era and growth period of post WWII and thru mid 80's our country enjoyed times of high employment, medical care for the working class, educational opportunities for the children of veterans and working class, and high levels of importance place on education (secondary completion).<br /><br />I realize this was not true for all but certainly the majority of our people had jobs with great benefits and the future was bright based on retirement. This was a period of loyality between employer and employee where you could work for one company your entire life.<br /><br />Company's did not sell out to take short term profits and leave their employees holding the bag. All was not great but poverty numbers were no where near the point of today.<br /><br />People became Doctors to treat people not just to get super rich, and most lawyers were respected as honorable people. It did not matter where I grew up if your Dad was a mechanic or owned a business, we were all about us.<br /><br />I see us in Complacency. Many of us still have it pretty good and if I do not go to the wrong part of town we do not see poverty. We have plenty autos, bigger homes, nice boats and well others do not really need those things anyway.<br /><br />Almost all the Moms now work and kids are raised by others. We try to make it to most of the kids activities but we let work keep us away. We stop off for a business drink rather than get home for dinner with the family.<br /><br />Well, Mom works also so we do not sit down and eat at the table anyway and besides Jr. is busy. I not sure what he is doing but I think it is something with school. I am not sure, I get home and go straight to bed before he gets in anyway.<br />He is happy.<br /><br />Church, well yeah except sometimes Sun. is only day I can sleep in. I tell the kids to go. Sometimes they do. I believe in God and am sure they do also, and that is alll that matters.<br /><br />Jobs, well probably 40% or more (GAO)of the population is either works for the government or is supported by it. Private industry jobs are down but so are unemployment figures are also low. I am doing well so things are good.<br /><br />QC, Things are not good. 40% government dependent, jobs down, outsourcing rising, war is supporting our economy, we are selling out our country (ports) and jobs building new helicopter (European countries) and on and on.<br /><br />I have not solution but wish I did. Your opinion.

 

[JB]

Re: US Democracy

A democracy and a republic are very different forms of government, TXS. Look 'em up. Not at all a "play on words". Unless the play is that very few Americans know the difference.<br /><br />You should have learned that in Junior High Civics.<br /><br />I couldn't remember that it was Orange County, QC, so I just generalized. My apologies. My point is that liberal democracies tend to follow Tyler's analysis as long as those at the trough outnumber those who fill it.

 

[ZooMbr]

Re: US Democracy

Read the writings of Frederic Bastiat, a liberal, who in the 1850's wrote a booklet "The Law". You get an understanding why our Republic is on the slippery slope down. And, must be guarded -- legal plunder -- the surest way to destroy the government. +a few other things.

 

[txswinner]

Re: US Democracy

I skipped your class oh great educator.

 

[txswinner]

Re: US Democracy

You generalized my ear, just admit you shot off your e-mail without the correct information. You were wrong. Say it, it does not hurt that badly.

 

[heycods]

Re: US Democracy

And to the Republic for which it stands , one nation under GOD......<br /><br /><br />Gee weren t our forefathers stupid to make so many mistakes in one sentence?

 

[rolmops]

Re: US Democracy

The examples of the rise and fall of great civilisations have all followed the same pattern as the democratic model.The time frames have been longer or shorter,but the ruling class has always been the one that robbed the treasury.<br />Alexander Tyler was politically motivated to write this thesis.England was just beaten in a war that was fought against a budding republic that had chosen democracy and it had a very old bone to pick with the Dutch republic (At that time the biggest trade competitor of England and for 200 years a republic already).At this time in history it was almost inconceivable to live in anything but a totalitarian monarchy. But times were changing fast.France was on the edge of revolution.With the succesful example of the Dutch republic,which was utterly despised by monarchial Britain,and the upstart ex-colony republic going the same way.The mostly conservative pro-monarchy professor simply wrote a political opinion and not a scientific thesis.

 

[QC]

Re: US Democracy

txs,<br /><br />The Great Educator is correct. I would consider a Republic as a form of Democracy, but it is distinct. I spent some time a couple of days ago reading up on Democracy on Wikepedia. Enlightening and confusing at the same time. You should have a read . . .

 

[JB]

Re: US Democracy

Okay, TXS. I remembered a government in CA went in the tank because of over-liberalization. I only remembered CA. That is where Orange County is, right?<br /><br />When you get to be my age you have a lot more information than you can remember while typing, so you do what you can. If you will READ my post, what I said was "(CA?)". Hardly an incorrect statement, merely a question. QC answered the question.<br /><br />That doesn't hurt a bit.

 

[PW2]

Re: US Democracy

JB wrote:<br />Individual democratic units (NO?) have come almost full circle. Some even have been bankrupt (CA?), but at the federal level and in some states conservatism checks the headlong rush toward dependency."<br />------------------<br /><br /><br />So when are these stalwarts of conservatism at the federal level going to show up and save us, JB?<br />There used to be an economic concept of conservatism called "Starve the Beast" where if you lower taxes enough, you simply don't have the resources to fund all the programs of the politicians, and they "Starve"<br /><br />We seem to have changed the program. It is now called "Give that beast another credit card!"<br /><br />But I do love the conservatives! They really like to argue about how they imagine things ought to be, while completely ignoring how they really are.<br /><br />And most states are much more fiscally responsible than the federal government, as most are required by law to have a balanced budget. The last time we had a balanced budget with the Feds was under Clinton, and you all know how terrible that was!

 

[Bondo]

Re: US Democracy

But I do love the conservatives! They really like to argue about how they imagine things ought to be, while completely ignoring how they really are.

Conservatives!,..????......<br /><br />Naw,... Nope,.... No Way,.......<br />That's a Textbook definition of a Liberal,..... Plain, & Simple...........<br />Typical Liberal, looking thru Rose Coloered Glasses...........<br />

And most states are much more fiscally responsible than the federal government, as most are required by law to have a balanced budget. The last time we had a balanced budget with the Feds was under Clinton, and you all know how terrible that was!

This is Also becoming Quite UnTrue............<br /><br />New York IS required, By Law, to have a "Balanced Budget",..........<br />Yet,.... It Hasn't Happened in Over 20 Years,.......<br />Instead,.... They just create a New "Authority" to do the Borrowing For the State......<br />'ell,.... The New York State Thruway Authority has "Bought" from the State,... Most of the State,......<br />Just to "Balance" the Books..........<br />Here in NY state,.. it's known as "Backdoor" Borrowing,.... Still Illegal Borrowing in My book............. <br /><br /><br />And,..... As for the Federal Budget,..........<br /><br />Did Anybody notice that there was a Surplus, in the Federal Budget in January,..???.......<br />Of Several Billion Dollar$.........<br /><br />Clinton was Riding a Wave, that He/ They had Nothing t Do With.............'ell,... He/ They Couldn't $pend it Fast Enough........<br />And,....... That Wave had Already Crashed, even Before He/ They left Office..............

 

[JB]

Re: US Democracy

Yup. The so-called Clinton prosperity was the fruit of Reagan's tax cuts and the overshoot from cold war economics.<br /><br />Clinton also pushed through the largest tax increase in our history. . . leading to the recession that began in 2001. The consequences of these changes do not happen instantly, they take years.<br /><br />These same libs that are squealing about the conservative budget cuts are squealing about spending. What is that all about? Which way do they want it? I think they want to resume tax and spend economics.<br /><br />We are at war. That costs bux. We have had the worst natural disaster in our history and that is just beginning to cost many billions of bux. . . handouts to the victims for their uninsured losses.<br /><br />Who is it that is ignoring how things really are, PW2? Seems to me it is thee.

 

[18rabbit]

Re: US Democracy

Originally posted by QC:<br /> Hey, I'm pretty sure we have kept our heads above water . . . I don't recall a bankruptcy other than Orange County

The way I remember it, the federal bankruptcy code is written in odd numbered chapters; chapter 7, 9, 11, 13. Chapter 9 didn’t exist until it was needed, then it was written especially for New York City, so a municipality can declare bankruptcy. Chapter 7 is the discharge of debts; chapter 11 is the reorganization of debts; I forget what chapter 13 does.<br /><br />The irony of Orange County’s bankruptcy is that it was caused entirely by republicans, the supposedly fiscally sound party. Orange County Calif is/was a longtime republican stronghold in southern California.