Vacuum at WOT

FreeBeeTony

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Was thinking about this today..........<br /><br />During the troubleshooting process last season of my low WOT I did the vacuum test. I took readings at various RPM's and I learned that the vacuum of an engine goes down to almost nothing at WOT.<br /><br />Question: Is this due to the fact that at idle the carburator plates are almost closed and is restricting the intake thus causing an increase in vacuum and, the exact opposite at WOT where the carb plates are completely opened and the intake is not restricted causing the intake vacuum to almost go to zero?<br /><br />I am looking forward to my Vortec SBC this year........<br /><br />Just a thought that crossed my mind.......
 

QC

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Re: Vacuum at WOT

And . . . . you have just discovered the key to a big secret. Those "carburator plates " are actually the "throttle" (not the lever you push on) and the vacuum created whenever it is less than WO (as in WOT) requires horsepower (fuel) to pull air past it, soooooooo (here's the big secret) . . . throttled engines are most efficient at WOT Yes, I know your head is spinning, but it is true and it is the main reason that diesels are more efficient. They ain't got no stinkin' throttle.<br /><br />Where most people get really freaked out by that is they confuse my statement with WOT RPM. It is WOT where they are most efficient, but high RPM is inefficient, so there is a big conflict with boats. Low RPM, WOT, good for engine efficiency, waaaaay bad for boat performance.
 

rodbolt

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Re: Vacuum at WOT

actually I have to respectfully disagree with QC on this issue.<br /><br /> the ineffecincy comes from the fact a carb has to use a difference in air pressue to move fuel and has less compression than a diesel. diesels typically run double the compression ratio and inject fuel at a high pressure directly into the engine. combustion timing on a diesel is controled by the injector rack or the ECU on moden EDC diesels. gas motors still must spark the system.<br /> thats why gas EFI motors are more effeicent than carbed models, the EFI ECU has more control over fuel charge and injection sequence and does not rely on manifold pressure for fuel delivery.<br /> a carb is a comprimise throughout the RPM range and injection can be tailored to any particular RPM and engine load by comparing the RPM signal to the barometric sensor and the MAP sensor and the throttle angle.<br /> couple that with air pressure signals and intake air temp (density) sensors and coolant sensors then throw in a knock detect signal for max spark advance and you have a very efficient gas motor that can make a lot of power with a 7.5/1 compression ratio. that old rack injected diesel is just a smoke bellower now that modern EDC controls are hitting the diesel market in the US. diesel is not as susceptable for lean failures as gas as its a harder fuel to detonate.<br /> but as more EDC diesels come on the market you may see more of them.<br />years back when carbs were fuel dribblers they had no throttle plates. they dribbled fuel into the intake tract depending on were the needle was set.<br />they also had no fuel bowls and were gravity fed.<br />however with the advent of more modern carbs with a fuel pump they had to ad a fuel bowl and throttle plates to comprimise for varying load and RPM conditions.<br />but a modern carb still relies on air pressure to move fuel.<br />thats why the EFI manuals never mention intake vacum and always refer to it as intake pressure.
 

QC

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Re: Vacuum at WOT

We should probably start another thread, but I will respond here.<br /><br />I learned this from an ex VP of engine development at Cummins who was also a previous President of the SAE . . . I respectfully will stick with his story . . . :D Trust me I understand diesels, and I respectfully disagreed with him when I first met him in 1994. I was wrong. I have done nothing but work with Caterpillar diesels since I was 18, I'm 46. I was the Truck Service Manager for the Los Angeles area Caterpillar dealer when they went from Mechanical to Electronic in the late 80's. I am a kinda Carbureted idiot, but I understand the role of the throttle. The Otto cycle (inventor of the spark ignited engine) requires a throttle. Detroit, Germany, Japan and Italy have spent literally Billions trying to get rid of the throttle, they have not really been successful . . . yet.<br /><br />Here is a chart he (the guy I mention above) put together that illustrates this issue sort of. Stoichiometric is all of our boat engines (even two-strokes) other than diesels. Stoic means perfect air to fuel ratio which I understand with Gasoline is around 15 - 1. It is referred to as Lambda 1. Lean-burn is blown and they run extra lean to get the throttle further open for precisely the reason I note in my first post in this thread. Most lean-burners run about Lambda 1.5 - 1.8 which is 50% to 80% excess air (lean) I think.<br /><br />
Picture1.JPG
<br /><br />The Y axis is equalized for any fuel (BTUs) and the X Axis translates directly to throttle position. 100% equals WOT on an Otto engine and "full rack" or "max fuel delivery" or incorrect but often used "WOT" on a diesel.<br /><br />rodbolt,<br /><br />I am really not trying to win this discussion, I am only sharing what all engine development engineers know, and for some reason is misunderstood and miscommunicated to the rest of us. I couldn't tune a carbed engine, but I could probably put together a mechanical diesel injection pump, rebuild a mechanical governor and I can diagnose a 5,000 bhp electronic diesel with a laptop as easily as posting a picture here . . . I know the difference between common rail, pump-in-line, mechanical unit injector (MUI), electronically actuated unit injectors (EUI), Hydraulically actuated electronically controlled unit injectors (HEUI) and a MPI throttled spark ignited injector (actually a valve). The guy above lost a patent dispute with Caterpillar over their current HEUI injectors. He was actually right, but they broke him :(
 

QC

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Re: Vacuum at WOT

BTW, over an out for at least a while, the wife is gonna kick my flippin' know-it-all arse if I dont' get the hell out of my office . . . :rolleyes: :D
 

rodbolt

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Re: Vacuum at WOT

and there you hit the issue :) <br /> the only reason for a throttle on a gas motor is to maintain the correct air to fuel ratio in the combustion chamber.<br /> with compression ratios of less than 10 to 1 and with the volitility of gasoline even EFI gas motors ,for the most part, must run a movable restrictor in the intake tract to limit air. most use an idle air bypass motor commonly called an IAC.<br /> eventually I can see throttle restrictors on high speed diesels.<br /> once the intake tracts get big enough and there is a nessesity for extended periods at 700 rpm them extended periods at 4500+ rpm you may see it.<br /> until the advent of EDC on the cats and volvos most diesels were limited to less than 2500 with some rated as high as 3500 for short periods.<br />but still most ran a compression ratio in excess of 18-20 to one with some as high as 25to 1. we ran a little 4 banger cat that was limited to 1800 RPM for periods greater than 30 min.<br />but I think the timing only varied about 3 degrees from idle to WOT a gas motor may vary from 10*ATDC to 38*BTDC. a typical example is the yamaha F225. <br /> the stociometric ratio for gasoline is 14.7/1 I cant remember for diesel but for nitromethane its2/1and about 5.5/1 for methanol. but the ineffecieny of a carb has nothing to do with a throttle butterfly. a diesel is a constant combustion type fuel and is hard to detonate and a gas motor is a constant volume type fuel that will detonate rapidly leading to catastrophic failure.<br /> while I dont work on diesels much anymore I also understand the fuel,air and operating priciples of both. as well as the rotary and rotary valve motors with some training on gas turbine.<br /> a gas engine that is run at a constant speed and load can be made with no throttle assy, however if you wish for a smooth idle and a smooth transition from 600 RPM to 5000+ RPM you must alter the amount of air in the cumbustion chamber either by limiting intake valve motion and injecting the proper amount of fuel into the combustion chamber, which has been tried, or by leaving the valvetrain alone and restricting the intake tract. that goes for EFI,DFI and carbed gas engines that have a large RPM spread.
 

QC

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Re: Vacuum at WOT

Originally posted by rodbolt:<br /> a gas engine that is run at a constant speed and load can be made with no throttle assy,
Totally 100% agree in fact they are approaching, if not at, diesel efficiency now at this one operating point. No throttle = WOT.<br /><br />The EFI sliding plate thing is kinda tomato tomahto. Either way you are "throttling" the intake . . . In fact all of those methods towards the bottom of your post are still "throttling" the intake air.<br /><br />Modern diesel compression ratios have actually come down some. There are some down to 14 to 1 I believe. Some of this is emissions stuff, but they have learned a lot. The newest CAT diesels have hydraulic valve actuation that allows them to do all kinds of crazy stuff. They also have internal EGR passages :( <br /><br />Have you got into the Miller Cycle yet? If you haven't do a Google. Mazda actually sells one, I think Millenium model.
 

FreeBeeTony

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Re: Vacuum at WOT

WOW.........and this was just a thought that crossed my mind!
 

Don S

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Re: Vacuum at WOT

That'll teach ya to think! ;) ;) :D
 

Reel Poor

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Re: Vacuum at WOT

Would you like to follow up your question Tony??? :eek: <br /> :D :D
 

rodbolt

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Re: Vacuum at WOT

but the fact it has no throttle has nothing to do with engine effeciency on a gas moter, its a fact of its cheap and reliable for a constant speed and load motor.<br /> you cannot vary the speed on a gas motor more than a few hundred RPM by fuel. gasoline is a constant volume type fuel and as fuel is altered so must air. Disiel is a constant combustion type fuel that can tolerate wide variences in air/fuel ratios.<br /> however with the advent of more modern controls and injection systems not only can the compression be lowered but effeciency of the burn and scavanging as well as higher RPM from a lighter casting and reciprocating assy are possible.<br /> but the simple fact it has a throttle has nothing to do with the efciancy of the fuel transfer.<br /> a diesel is not dependant on an air pressure differential to move fuel from the fuel bowl to the intake tract and a carb is entirely depentant on that differential and the resulting velocity of the air past the venturi. but no matter how you slice or dice it if you use a fuel that needs a constant volume or"ratio" you must use a movable restriction to keep the air to fuel ratio constant or it either becomes to rich and wont burn or becomes to lean to burn. has nothing to do with a shutter and everything to do with keeping the correct air to fuel ratio in a constant volume combustion engine. I have read some of the miller cycle, it goes back to the 40's some time but I dont see it as practicle in large displacement heavy duty stuff.<br />but in that application ,if you notice, they use the supercharger pressure and cylinder pressure to control(restrict) the amount of intake air in the combustion chamber. there again it has nothing to do with a shutter, however a miller cycle did not work well at all with a carburator.<br /> as the air pressure diffential was to widly varied.<br />while vacum is esay to understand its actually pressure that moves fuel in a modern carburator. thats why a motor with a burned valve and a carb idles like stink and shakes and an EFI with a burned valve will still idle at 650 RPM and do it smoothly. like I said, in any engine using a constant volume fuel you must restrict the air as speed of the engine varies. with modern EFI we know the fuel pressure on the rail and the injector opening size as well as the programed injector on time at any given RPM and load. but you must have a method to match the air in the cyl to the amount of fuel in the cylinder or you have to use a constant combustion type fuel. gasoline is funny stuff, to rich and it wont burn, to lean and it wont burn, borderline lean it burns so hot that the temp melts pistons and valves, to much pressure and it burns out of control and breaks rings and pistons as well as cracks cylinder heads, desiel fuel ,as well as some other fuels, tend not to burn as fast or as out of control. however you can burn disiel in a 454 chevy with the correct injectors and the correct ECU program, however you normally start on gas or propane first.<br /> all or P250 pumps on the USS arliegh Burke were 2 cyl 2stroke 55hp OMC powerheads, we started them on a propane cannister and ran them on JP5, basically refined kerosene.
 

FreeBeeTony

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Re: Vacuum at WOT

Well.........I'm glad I have a pretty good understanding of the operation of a gasoline combustion engine.<br /><br />I have always done all my own repair work on my cars and pretty much enjoy it. Although I have been doing this for ~30 years.....it wasn't until I rebuilt my IL6 a couple of years ago and troubleshot the SBC in this 24 footer that I really got an education.<br /><br />I am in an egineering position in electronics (military) so I have good troubleshooting skills. I don't mind "turning a wrench" as Bondo puts it, I almost enjoy it.........as long as I am making progress!<br /><br />And thanks to the people on this board I have learned quite a bit.<br /><br />Glad I could spark such an interesting thread!
 

Mischief Managed

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Re: Vacuum at WOT

Just wanted to add, if you still had vacuum at WOT, you need a bigger carburetor to extract all the power from the engine.
 

QC

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Re: Vacuum at WOT

MM,<br /><br />Bingo, and it proves my point that ANY intake restriction limits an engine's power AND efficiency capabilities. You can call it vacuum if you are referring to Atmospheric or PSIG, or you can call it pressure if you are referring to Absolute pressure. Doesn't matter, either way there is less ability for the Atmospheric pressure to help "push" air in or more of a restriction to pull air past. Both mean that the engine literally uses fuel to get air in instead of using that fuel to make horsepower. This is an extremely legitimate issue, and is again, the main reason (not the only reason) that diesels are more efficient. They have less average air intake restriction over a complete operating cycle.<br /><br />
Originally posted by rodbolt:<br /> but the simple fact it has a throttle has nothing to do with the efciancy of the fuel transfer.<br /><br />like I said, in any engine using a constant volume fuel you must restrict the air as speed of the engine varies. <br /><br />but you must have a method to match the air in the cyl to the amount of fuel in the cylinder or you have to use a constant combustion type fuel.<br /><br />gasoline is funny stuff, to rich and it wont burn, to lean and it wont burn
And every one of those quotes is answered by some sort of throttling mechanism. rodbolt is 100% correct, but missing one thing. What is being described as pressure is atmospheric. It literally pushes down on the pistons as they travel downward on the intake stroke. We all think of it as vacuum solely because we are stuck with atmospheric pressure, so we call it 0, ya know PSIG (gauge) “zeroed” at 14.7 psi (atmospheric).<br /><br />This "pushing" down on the pistons by air actually helps the engine, it is how the air gets in AND any thing that limits its flow causes less than the maximum available pushing effort. Remember, I am only talking about atmospheric pressure here as we are discussing primarily naturally aspirated, Otto cycle engines and they get only the air that they allow in when things are open i.e. intake valves and . . . throttling mechanisms. Sooooo, anytime there is anything in the way, air-cleaner, intake valve, funky bends in the intake manifold etc. or a variable "throttling" mechanism, they are less efficient than they can be.<br /><br />Sorry, don't mean to keep ranting on, but it is not accurate to say that throttling is irrelevant to efficiency, it IS the MOST relevant issue.
 

akaSharkey

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Re: Vacuum at WOT

Modern diesel compression ratios have actually come down some. There are some down to 14 to 1 I believe. Some of this is emissions stuff, but they have learned a lot. The newest CAT diesels have hydraulic valve actuation that allows them to do all kinds of crazy stuff. They also have internal EGR passages :( <br /><br />
I currently drive a 2005 Kenworth with a C-15 Acert MXS. I absolutly hate this engine. No power. Fuel milage is dowm 1 mpg over my 3406e. And the actuator valve in the top of the head behind the alternator has been replaced five times in 150,000 miles, and it still throws a code. It has been rewired and the ecm replaced. Gotta love technology. I am glad it is under warrenty with a shop labor rate of $105 per hour. Unless Cat gan get things together I think Im going a different route next time. I was going to get a vanity plate for the truck "CATSTRATED"
 

QC

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Re: Vacuum at WOT

Most reports I have heard is that the ACERT is doing well. This is from Cat, Dealers and Customers. I have no axe to grind as I don't sell anything for the ACERT engines yet. My current customers are in Australia and they don't get ACERT until 2008. The 3406E and pre-ACERT C15 are great engines.<br /><br />What dealer are you working with Sharkey? The alternatives are real cool stuff too, EGR is not necessarily as bad as most people make it out to be, but you still have loads of technology and components delivering that stuff. Sorry for the hijack Tony, we should probably move over to non-Boating tech Sharkey . . .<br /><br />Edit: Yes, MM they are pumping losses. Since the topic was vacuum, I chose "sucking losses" as a theme . . . :D
 

akaSharkey

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Re: Vacuum at WOT

Working with Fabic in St Louis Missouri. Dealer is great just not impressed with the motor. Cat sent engineers down from Peoria and they did a dyno run, all kind of tests. They are suppose to be doing a software update for the motor soon. Hopefully that will fix it. I wish I would of kept my 1996 model with the 3406 set at 550 hp and 1850 torque. It had 1,300,000 when sold. Best truck I ever had.
 

rodbolt

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Re: Vacuum at WOT

QC without some type of air restricting device on ANY engine that uses a constant volume fuel you are stuck in a very very narrow RPM range, period. has nothing to do with the throttle. I seem to recall some ancient JD diesels that reqired an "air valve". your statement was the throttle plate created the ineffiencency and that is not correct.Diesel and certain other heavy fuel oils are constant combustion type fuels and will burn the entire length of the power stroke. they will burn very rich to very lean. in the past detonation was not a problem as the castings were massive, heavy but who cared. gasoline,ethanol,methanol and nitromethane are all very touchy constant VOLUME fuels that if the air to fuel ratio varies much it quits burning. to rich and it wont ignite and to lean it wont ignite.<br /> when I say air pressure moves the fuel its not only that 10 mile high colum of air above the fuel bowl but as the air is compressed going through the carb venturi it is heated and accelerated, once past the venturi it rapidly cools and expands creating a low pressure area just past the venturi. thats is what moves gasoline. that is why at or near WOT on a gas motor intake pressure is about 14 PSI as is fuel bowl pressure yet fuel still flows. thats why gas motors suffer from altitude sickness.<br /> at 1 mile high the air moecules air more widely spaced due to the lower air pressure.<br /> thats also how modern EFI compensates for altitude sickness and carbs had to have jetting changes. diesels did not seem to be affected as much, gas can lose 20% of its sealevel power right off the bat.<br /> look at it this way, a High Pressure Direct Injected 250 HP yamaha, we inject fuel directly into the cyl at 1100 PSI after the intake and ex ports close.<br /> lets say we need a 4 inch opening at WOT for maintaining the 14.7/1 air to fuel VOLUME.<br /> if all we ever need is WOT(5500 RPM) we can toss the air restrictors (throttle shutters) in the creek, would not need them.<br />however now we are gonna troll for some rockfish at 600 RPM, now we gor from a 6Ms pulsewith capeable of flowing enough fuel to maintain or 14.7/1 ratio to a 2.5MS pulse if we dont make the intake tract smaller or air to fuel ratio would climb over 30/1 air to fuel and combustion would cease and the engine would get super gas mileage.<br /> that low speed long stroke Diesy juicer on the other hand, with its fuel that burns at a constant COMBUSTION as opposed to VOLUME we can close the rack retard the injector advance and idle it at 600, the air to fuel will be somewhat lean, it will detonate(rattle) at idle due to the superheated compustion air at injection but the heads,wristpins block and bearings are massive enough to deal with it without damage.<br /> this is why ford tried a variable venturi carburator. so they could vary the size and thus airflow past the venturis to maintain a constant volume of air to fuel.<br /> gasoline is funny stuff, at about 13 parts air to 1 part gas it wont burn and about 16.5 parts air to 1 part fuel it fails to burn again.<br /> so I will stand by my statement that a trottle plate has nothing to do with the inefecincy of a gas motor its the fuel and RPM range required. <br /> as more smaller lighter high revving(5000) RPM diesels are made you will most likly see air valves on them as well.<br /> with the precise fuel delivery systems avalible with modern electronics coupled with the volume of air to fuel required from 600 RPM to 5K RPM you will most likly see it. it probalbly wont be a full shutter but a restrictor, this will allow less air so the need for less fuel at low speeds and a large enough intake tract for the volume of air to fuel at high speeds. the COX .049 model airplane motor we all played with as kids is a good example of a constant volume fueled motor with no throttle. move the air/fuel needle a half a turn either side of optimum and it quits.<br />at optimum it ran about 18,000 RPM or so. they ran on methanol/nitromethane. both are constant volume fuels.<br />one is an oxygen bearing fuel but both are constant volume.
 
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