Was I in the wrong?

[oldjeep]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

The OP's boat, drifting, is defined as a "vessel not under command" and was the 'stand-on' vessel. He had the right of way.

So out of curiosity, how are you supposed to tell if a boat is drifting and not putting along? Seems like if you're not anchored and you are moving that you are underway to anyone looking.

 

[JoLin]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

My wife and I are also members, Bob. Division 3, Captree chapter. In fact my wife's our AO (Administrative Officer).

Great, great bunch of people. We'll be headed out to join some of them in a little while. Have a great weekend!

 

[JoLin]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

So out of curiosity, how are you supposed to tell if a boat is drifting and not putting along? Seems like if you're not anchored and you are moving that you are underway to anyone looking.

IMO, if you can't tell, assume it's 'not under command'. That puts the burden on you to avoid contact. That's what I'd do.

 

[lakegeorge]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

One thing that a lot of you seem to have missed, just how fast do you think he was floating? 20mph? 30mph? how about 1mph or less. If you can't tell that someone is just sitting there and not moving then you have poor judgment.

Sailboat was wrong. period!

 

[spikeitaudi]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

a motor boat will produce a bow splash and wake when underway...easily seen by anyone looking... sounds to me like an inexperienced captain and crew on the sail bote...

Not sure if that is the case. What if he has his engine engaged at idle and making no wake. You might not see this. But hypothetical again.

Wind power is considered under power. I never said anything about a motor.

As for not being anchored if broken down, there is no law or rule (other than safety and common sense) that says you must anchor if disabled. Besides, what if he was in the 400' deep area of Lk Champlain? Do you carry 3000' of rode for an area like that?

I do not believe that a boat at drift is considered by anyone to be 'under power'.

The blowboat was in the wrong.

Wind power is not considered underpower. He needs to be on his engine to be considered onpower.

As for the anchor your right I don't carry 3000' of rode.

A few people here oughta take a boater safety course.

The OP's boat, drifting, is defined as a "vessel not under command" and was the 'stand-on' vessel. He had the right of way.

The sailboat, underway, was the 'stand to' vessel and required to give way.

This particular situation was an encounter between a boat that was 'underway' and a boat that was 'not under command'.

This was not an 'overtaking' situation. Overtaking is strictly defined as coming up on another boat from behind to pass. The term overtaking is also defined by the overtaking vessel's angle of approach. Outside that angle, you have a 'crossing' siutation and different rules apply.


The sailboat was not 'under power'. A sailboat is only under power when it is being propelled by a motor, in which case it is a 'powerboat' and subject to powerboat rules. If it operating under sail and power, it's still a powerboat.

Both vessels have a responsibility to try and avoid collision, regardless of who was 'supposed' to stand to (give way). If the OP saw a collision coming, could have taken action to avoid it but didn't, he would have shared responsibility for it.

My .02 (and thanks to the good folks at the United States Power Squadron, where I took this and several other valuable clases in boat operation and navigation)

EXACTLY!! Sailboat is not under power while Sailing with the wind and no motor propelling it.

This is about the best advice to always remember:

Both vessels have a responsibility to try and avoid collision, regardless of who was 'supposed' to stand to (give way). If the OP saw a collision coming, could have taken action to avoid it but didn't, he would have shared responsibility for it.

 

[JimS123]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

Boating safety courses are for sailboaters too. For every idiot I see in a gofast, I see just as many sailboaters that don't know a sponson from a poopdeck. Just too many sailboat captains that think they have the right away all the time no matter what.

Out in the Lake I see whole armadas of sailboats miles offshore by themselves. But I often see them trying to navigate the narrow river as well.

If they are in the river I automatically assume they lack common sense, and take precautions accordingly. "Defensive boating" is a good practice.

One time I was anchored maybe 300' off shore fishing in a 1/2 mile wide stretch of river. I had to cut the anchor line and fire the engine up to avoid a collision. Several seconds later and I would have been broadsided by a sailboat just at the end of his windward tack. All the time he was yelling at me because I wasn't supposed to be be in his right of way!

 

[pduquette]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

Is it possible the sail boat capitan was swinging by to see if you were disabled - maybe he was passing close to see if the powerboat capitain would shout for help ?? just a thought .....peter ..

 

[Bluepike]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

Chapman's Piloting and Seamanship is a good read over the winter months. You will find the rules of the road along with many other subjects covered in this book. It would help you prepare for a safety course.

Have fun out there!

 

[Ned L]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

Jo-Lin was closest here. If you are not showing a day signal indicating you are not under power, the the sailboat has to assume you ARE under power. The sailboat is then legally obligated to hold course and speed, and you are legally obligated to yield to the sailboat. (Until such time that it becomes obvious to the sailboat that he must yield to avoid a collision - because in the end BOTH vessels must take whatever action is required to avoid a collision.)
One boat has to be required to hold course and speed so that the other boat can know what action to take to avoid a collision, otherwise boats would be 'dancing' all around out on the water trying to outguess the other to stay out of the way.
This is a simple one. The sailboat was correct under COLREGS. (Hold course & speed until it becomes apparent that action will have to be taken to avoid a collision.) --- Though if the sailboat did really push things to 12', that was probably a bit closer than necessary.

 

[81 beachcomber]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

Is it possible the sail boat capitan was swinging by to see if you were disabled - maybe he was passing close to see if the powerboat capitain would shout for help ?? just a thought .....peter ..

its rare but true, there are nice people out there

 

[JoLin]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

Jo-Lin was closest here. If you are not showing a day signal indicating you are not under power, the the sailboat has to assume you ARE under power. The sailboat is then legally obligated to hold course and speed, and you are legally obligated to yield to the sailboat. (Until such time that it becomes obvious to the sailboat that he must yield to avoid a collision - because in the end BOTH vessels must take whatever action is required to avoid a collision.)
One boat has to be required to hold course and speed so that the other boat can know what action to take to avoid a collision, otherwise boats would be 'dancing' all around out on the water trying to outguess the other to stay out of the way.
The sailboat was correct under COLREGS.

Interesting point, Ned, and technically I think you're right.

In all honesty, though, the only day signal I've ever seen is a diving flag.

Since they're so seldom used, I'd still be inclined to believe that an apparently motionless boat is... motionless. Again, I'd put the burden on myself, as the vessel that's clearly underway or under power (as the case may be), to assume that the other vessel is 'not under command'. At least that way there's no downside if I'm wrong.

My .02

 

[Ned L]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

Well, ..... As they say, ignorance of the law is no excuse. (Just because someone doesn't know what a day signal is for a vessel not under command or under way (two vertical black balls), doesn't mean they are not obligated to use it.)
The down side of the sailboat taking premature evasive action is that the power boat will not know that the sailboat is taking such action, and this may put both vessels on a path of an unavoidable collision.

 

[Captain Caveman]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

I don't believe that taking a vessel that is afloat and putting it under power to avoid collision is a wise move. If I fire up the motor and hit the gas, I might go in the direction that the sailboat decided to go. In this situation, it was completely on the sailboat to make the decision and choose a course to avoid collision. Having two boats speed up, slow down, and do something hasty creates more problems than just one boat making all of the decisions.

 

[Mischief Managed]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

Sounds to me like the sailboat and the power boat did not have a collision. To me that means no one was at fault...

I suspect the sailboat captain was just seeing if he could make you move, just to be a jerk. I operate both sail and power boats and can assure you there are some real jerks involved in both of these pursuits. I strive to operate both with courtesy and would never knowingly put myself on a collision course with another boat, regardless of it's propulsion.

When underway, I keep a sharp lookout and make course adjustments so far in advance that often there is no question of stand-on versus give-way because there is no collision course.

A helpful tip for near-shore boating is to pick a stationary point of reference on land behind any boat who's path you are intersecting. If the other boat appears to be passing the point of reference, you will pass behind said boat. If the point of reference appears to be overtaking the the boat, you will pass in front of the boat. If the boat and the point of reference remain stationary relative to eachother, you are on a collision course. It's simlar to the concept of taking multiple compass bearings on a boat. If they never change, you are on a collsion course. If you understand geometry, you'll realize that the closer you are to the other boat, the less likely the land-based point of reference technique will work, so it's not perfect; but it's perfectly adequate if you use the technique to make course adjustments well ahead of time.

 

[lcdr frank]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

I always keep and eye out for other vessels regardless of at anchor, drifting, or under way. Old acronym CBDR...constant bearing decreasing range. If someone gave this to the OOD (Officer of the Deck..Navy) things start getting serious on the bridge.

Frank

 

[Utahboatnut]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

So if I am fishing and anchored in 200' of water and a sailboat is heading toward me it is up to me to have to pull in my fishing lines AND 200' of anchor and start up and move out of his way? On a lake that is MORE than big enough for the two of us. I may need to take up sailing if those are the perks offered.

 

[JoLin]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

Well, ..... As they say, ignorance of the law is no excuse. (Just because someone doesn't know what a day signal is for a vessel not under command or under way (two vertical black balls), doesn't mean they are not obligated to use it.)
The down side of the sailboat taking premature evasive action is that the power boat will not know that the sailboat is taking such action, and this may put both vessels on a path of an unavoidable collision.

We'll have to agree to disagree, then. Honestly, have you ever seen someone actually fly the 'not under command' signal? I never have. Virtually nobody uses day signals, so it wouldn't be smart of me to assume the 'other boat's' state on that basis.

If the powerboat is moving so slowly that I can't tell whether or not it's moving at all, then IMO I'd be right (and a lot safer) to consider myself the 'stand to' vessel.

If the powerboat were moving at sufficient speed to put itself in my path as I move to avoid it, then I must be stupid to have thought it wasn't moving at all- in which case we're both at risk anyway.

My .02

 

[spikeitaudi]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

So if I am fishing and anchored in 200' of water and a sailboat is heading toward me it is up to me to have to pull in my fishing lines AND 200' of anchor and start up and move out of his way? On a lake that is MORE than big enough for the two of us. I may need to take up sailing if those are the perks offered.

You have your anchor out. You don't need to move, but if he did hit you and you had enough time to pull anchor wouldn't you feel like an idiot knowing you could of done somthing to prevent it? I know I would.

 

[spikeitaudi]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

We'll have to agree to disagree, then. Honestly, have you ever seen someone actually fly the 'not under command' signal? I never have. Virtually nobody uses day signals, so it wouldn't be smart of me to assume the 'other boat's' state on that basis.

If the powerboat is moving so slowly that I can't tell whether or not it's moving at all, then IMO I'd be right (and a lot safer) to consider myself the 'stand to' vessel.

If the powerboat were moving at sufficient speed to put itself in my path as I move to avoid it, then I must be stupid to have thought it wasn't moving at all- in which case we're both at risk anyway.

My .02

I have to agree that I haven't seen the "not under command" signal either.

As far as assuming you can be the "stand to" only if he is in your 12 - 3 kill zone, THat again pertains to thinking you are a powered vessel.

Also as the definition of the Stand on vessel:

The vessel that must moaintain its course and speed uinless it becomes apparent that the give-way vessel is not taking appropriate action. If you must take action, do not turn toward the give-way vessel or cross in front of it.

So regardless you still need to move away as the stand on vessel if it looks like the Give-way vessel is going to hit you.

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: Was I in the wrong?

In the Chesapeake Bay and nearby, there are lots of motor boats sitting still, usually fishing, but lots just sunning. Some are anchored but many, perhaps most, are drifting. Some are trolling at drift speed. When there's a chop (most of the time) you cannot see wakes or "bow waves." Often you can't see anchor lines until you are close. Some drift with a sea anchor. Some drift with the motor idling. Those fishnig will have lines stretched out beyond the boats. At night, half the boats leave their running lights on while they drift (which is wrong).

So the deal is: when you are underway you avoid boats that are sitting there or moving slowly; treat them as if they are not underway regardless. You avoid the anchor lines upwind and the fishing lines down wind or astern. You give the trolling boats a wide berth and never push them close to a bridge or whatever where they will lose their lines.
The rule changes when you drift/troll into the shipping channel, where the "large boats" do not have to alter course for sail, anchored or drifting boats. Container ships, tugs and barges are "large boats." Anything military, USCG or LEO is treated as "large boat." And the guys driving expensive power boats regrdless of size think they are "large boats" and act that way. So you get out of their way.

All this regardless of the rule book. That comes out during the accident investigation and the lawsuit that follows the collision.