Was I in the wrong?

[ajgraz]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

Well, ..... As they say, ignorance of the law is no excuse. (Just because someone doesn't know what a day signal is for a vessel not under command or under way (two vertical black balls), doesn't mean they are not obligated to use it.)
The down side of the sailboat taking premature evasive action is that the power boat will not know that the sailboat is taking such action, and this may put both vessels on a path of an unavoidable collision.

This nails it. Without the day signals (as infrequently as they are used) to signify that you are "not under command" (or anchored, or in distress, as the case may be) the sailboat must assume that you are under power; therefore, unless the sailboat (believed he) was "overtaking" you...that is, coming directly onto your stern, he must assume that he is the "stand to" vessel and that you are the "give way" vessel.

Though I also agree with the guy who said 12' is cutting it too close.

That said, I've gotta get me some day signals, because sailboats "buzz" me all the time on San Diego Bay while I'm drift fishing. One day one of those sail boats is going to hit me, and I'll technically be at fault unless I get some proper day signals.

 

[Ned L]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

I really don't see where this is a discussable issue. COLREGS were written for a purpose, and that was not to leave things for various interpretations and opinions. They are pretty clear.

---- As for if you are at anchor in 200' of water and fishing, then you should be showing a day shape for anchoring (one black ball). and the other vessels (sail and power) are to give way to you.

There is a reason day shapes exist, and can be purchased.

 

[JoLin]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

he must assume that he is the "stand to" vessel and that you are the "give way" vessel.

Psst... 'stand to' and 'give way' mean the same thing.

The 'stand to' vessel changes course, the 'stand on' vessel continues to do whatever it was doing.

 

[Ned L]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

Thank you Adjgraz.

---------- I suspect he meant "stand on vessel".

 

[ajgraz]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

Psst... 'stand to' and 'give way' mean the same thing.

The 'stand to' vessel changes course, the 'stand on' vessel continues to do whatever it was doing.

Quite right, I meant to say "stand on"

At night, half the boats leave their running lights on while they drift (which is wrong).

If by "running lights" you mean sidelights and stern light, that's not necessarily wrong, but that does signal that they are "under way" so if that's what they're showing they'd better be ready to give way when needed...basically, it's the night time equivalent of the OP's not showing two black balls during the day. Would you rather they showed no lights? Or an anchor light while not anchored?...that would be wrong.

The proper night time signal for "not under command" is two red all-around lights in a vertical line.

 

[Ned L]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

Its all really pretty easy out there when people understand what they are supposed to be doing. It gets complicated when people don't know what to do and do and make maneuvers because they "think" it is the safer thing to do.

 

[Red_BOFUS]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

I mostly boat on the Tennessee River and go by the road and lawn law.

Between the channel markers is the road and everything outside of them is the front yard. You play in the front yard and drive in the channel. I don?t traverse in the yard and I don?t park or play in the channel.

Sailboats are awesome, but sometimes the skippers do over indulge in the courtesy afforded them on the water. It is both skippers duty to avoid accidents and safely manage their vessels on the water.

My practice is when no one is around me, I like to sit down and relax. The second a vessel or anything else enters the area around my boat (from at me or over taking me, or just idle in the water) I stand and enjoy the better view of the situation.

I would not seek to address fault in this but rather what could have been done different on both sides to gain knowledge for the next time you find yourself on either end of the same situation.

This is my view and how I conduct business. I just assume I am the one who will have to respond and make moves.

Remember Mr. Murphy likes to go boating too.

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: Was I in the wrong?

ajgraz: they should turn off the running lights (green and red on or near the bow) unless they are underway. You are right; leaving them on signals that they are underway. The orientation of the lights tells others their course. In fact, they are drifting or anchored: not under way.

They should have only an anchor light (single white light astern or high amidships) on when anchored or drifting; technically drifting isn't anchored but functionally for light signals, it's the same. I also think they need more than the one legal light in crowded harbor areas. One little white bulb 40' up doesn't warn very well.

I hate to yield to the uninformed but I'd rather be safe. My displaying two red vertical lights would serve to inform most boaters that I am a railroad crossing, and a black ball, an invitation to join my bowling league.

 

[smokeonthewater]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

I STILL think this debate is silly..... The boat floating, drifting, or motoring slowly is in NO (non emergency) instance required to accelerate to avoid another recreational vessel..... You do not need to see a wake to determine whether a vessel is moving fast enough to avoid you..... Had the power boat had a displacement of 2000 lbs and a 55 lb thrust trolling motor operating at max speed of say, 2 mph he would have been powerless to avoid the jerk in the sailboat who either felt entitled to the whole waterway or was not paying attention.... often they have sails that block their vision and think that it's ok to blindly sail because all the other boats will move for them...

The point that it becomes apparaant that the other vessel is not taking evasive action is not the point that you no longer assume they have time to avoid you but rather is comes much earlier than that.... Example I meet boats on the river and from the first moment I see them I am watching their course.... If I can see that they are moving I would never plan a collision course... stand on or otherwise.... if they look to be stationary I of course steer away....
I have done a little sailing and sometimes your direction of travel is very limited sooooooo you plan to tack before reaching the other boat untill you are able to determine that they are definately moving and are yeilding to you.

Yes hold your course but PLAN and PREPARE to change it.

"they'll move" is NOT an acceptable motto.

Now if the OP had stated he motored in front of an approaching sailboat and killed the engine it would be a completely different situation.

YES the day signal laws are right on but honestly you could have had one, two, or a thousand black, green, or red balls on the powerboat and the chances that the sailboat captian would have been one of the very few that know what they mean and at the same time be a responsible enough seaman to know that a safe distance would have been closer to 500 feet than 12 is VERY slim.... I still say that while a technicality could be sighted and while obeying ALL laws and rules is a good idea. NO the OP was not the one at fault for the close call.

 

[QC]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

Guys, this is a great thread. Let's keep it that way

With that noted I want to contribute to the argu . . . err, discussion.

I was looking into the COLREGS to see if I could figure out the day signal thing. I don't carry them, they are not required equipment as a far as I know, so I was struck how not using them could be ignorance of the law.

So first I find this: [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

Part A - General (Rules 1-3)
Rule 1 states that the rules apply to all vessels upon the high seas and all waters connected to the high seas and navigable by seagoing vessels.

[/FONT]And then this:

COLREGS can also refer to the specific political line that divides inland waterways (subject to one set of navigation rules) and coastal waterways (subject to international navigation rules).

And then this:

(b) The waters inside of the lines are Inland Rules waters. The waters outside the lines are COLREGS waters.

Which begs the question: do we understand the lines for Lake Champlain? If considered Inland, do the States of NY and VT recognize or require day use signals? What does Bob_VT think? Do we care what the Canucks think?

 

[fishrdan]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

COLREGS??? I've never heard of them an I've been boating (inland lakes) for 20 years. I've never seen day signal flags used on any lake around here... I just looked them up and now I know why.

COLREGS Demarcation Lines

Demarcation Lines: Purpose, Authority, and Source

80.01 General basis and purpose of demarcation lines
(a) The regulations in this part establish the lines of demarcation delineating those waters upon which mariners shall comply with the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea, 1972 (72 COLREGS) and those waters upon which mariners shall comply with the Inland Navigation Rules.
(b) The waters inside of the lines are Inland Rules Waters. The waters outside the lines are COLREGS Waters.

Outside the inlet you go by COLREGS, inside the inlet you go by Inland Navigation Rules. I'm pretty sure Lake Champlain (the OP's lake) is far far away from sea going traffic, so I don't think COLREGS would apply to him.

 

[fishrdan]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

I was looking into the COLREGS to see..............

Dang it, looks like QC beat me to it...

 

[QC]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

I was considering the possibility that locking through to the St. Laurence (can one?) might allow for Sea Going Traffic on Champlain, but I'm with Dan . . .

 

[The Famous Grouse]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

I STILL think this debate is silly..... The boat floating, drifting, or motoring slowly is in NO (non emergency) instance required to accelerate to avoid another recreational vessel.....

The point that it becomes apparent that the other vessel is not taking evasive action is not the point that you no longer assume they have time to avoid you but rather is comes much earlier than that....

NO the OP was not the one at fault for the close call.

I agree.

Under no circumstances should the sailboat captain have allowed his boat to come within a foot of another vessel. He should have changed his course slightly long before causing such a near miss. I highly doubt this was a situation where the sailboat captain knew the rules of the road and thought he was in the right and therefore did not change course. Even if he did, he violated the principle rule of common sense.

Most likely he wasn't paying attention and wrongly assumed that it was everyone else's job to see to it that he didn't collide with them. Unfortunately, I think may sailboat captains have heard and believe the myth that they have an automatic right of way and therefore it's everyone else's job to avoid them. This contributes to a general attitude of arrogance in some and I strongly suspect that's what contributed to the near-miss in this case.

I generally am understanding toward sailboats, but when they are overplaying their "Avoid me! I'm a sailboat and have a god-given right not to have to change course" card I will see to it that I avoid them. But nothing obligates me to make it by very much. Sorry if you spilled your Chardonnay when crossing my wake, captain. Sailboat captains need to understand that boat traffic, weather conditions, and other factors mean that it is not practical for them to operate wherever they please, whenever they please even if it is techncially allowed. If they choose to operate in these conditions, they better be able to control their boat and not simply rely on everyone else getting out of their way.

Grouse

 

[Wingedwheel]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

All I can say if thats Lazycruiser in the pic I can see why they never saw the boat.

 

[sethjon]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

Howdy all.....
We are new boaters, dumb as a box of rocks. But we're trying and we're learning.

Today we were about 1.5 miles out in Lake Champlain, motor off & just drifting and BS'ing and enjoying it all. Along came a sailboat bearing down on us at a fast clip with the crew feverishly working to avoid a collision. They very narrowly missed us, veering off at the last possible moment and missing us by about 12' !!!

Now I know that sailboats get the right of way, but I was told I probably was at fault in this incident. So, I'm confused. Just drifting in open water and not under power,,,,,,,Could I really have been in the wrong here? It's a really humongous lake !!!

thanks for any input

In this case you were both wrong. They should have veered off a long time before, but they may have been having a problem and couldn't. You were wrong because by not moving you put yourself and your crew in danger.

 

[smclear]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

A few people here oughta take a boater safety course.

The OP's boat, drifting, is defined as a "vessel not under command" and was the 'stand-on' vessel. He had the right of way.

Wrong.

By definition a Vessel not under command is

Under Part A of the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea (COLREGS), the term ?vessel not under command? means a vessel which through some exceptional circumstance is unable to manoeuvre as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel.

Says nothing about whether a pilot/captain/driver is at the helm. Most vessels "not under command" have a pilot at the helm.

If you are drifting (not anchored) you are underway. It doesn't matter if your engine is off or on.

One more pet peeve, many folks here refer to their engine as a motor. (I am guilty of this to sometimes). The fact is, a motor is an piece of electrical equipment (not fossil fuel driven), and engine is powered by fossil fuel i.e. gas, diesel, bio-diesel etc.

 

[NYBo]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

ajgraz: they should turn off the running lights (green and red on or near the bow) unless they are underway. You are right; leaving them on signals that they are underway. The orientation of the lights tells others their course. In fact, they are drifting or anchored: not under way.

Incorrect. A drifting boat IS underway and must display the appropriate lights.

 

[ajgraz]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

Outside the inlet you go by COLREGS, inside the inlet you go by Inland Navigation Rules. I'm pretty sure Lake Champlain (the OP's lake) is far far away from sea going traffic, so I don't think COLREGS would apply to him.

Inland Rules require shapes as well for not under command or restricted maneuverability:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/33/usc_sec_33_00002027----000-.html

Though it turns out that vessels under 12 meters are exempt.

 

[scoutabout]

Re: Was I in the wrong?

ajgraz: ... My displaying two red vertical lights would serve to inform most boaters that I am a railroad crossing, and a black ball, an invitation to join my bowling league....

LOL - bang on!

Some years ago I proceeded in confidence when I had the right of way, thinking nothing more of it once sure the other boat was giving way.

Two minutes later he's charging along side, cutting me off, sputtering and gestering like I've somehow mortally insulted him. Turns out he was just one of the clueless, deadly multitude and only appeared at first to understand rights of way. Really, he was just altering course while plotting his "revenge" on us.

Like our motorcycling friend says, right and dead is no fun (but sadly a very real possibility out on the water...)