What to expect from 2 cycle synthetic oil?

[mickjetblue]

I am going back to a 2 cycle outboard - 1999 40 hp Johnson.

Absolutely nothing with the 4 stroke I've been using for a few years,
but I want to try a jet motor, and I could afford the '99.

Anyway, I am used to a very clean running motor with no oil fumes,
so I'm going to try synthetic 2 cycle oil in it when I get it on the water soon.

What can I expect from the synthetic, compared to regular oil?

 

[Silvertip]

Re: What to expect from 2 cycle synthetic oil?

Less smoke, cleaner running, better for the environment, slightly better performance, less carbon build-up, longer spark plug life. No -- it won't double your fuel economy.

 

[kenmyfam]

Re: What to expect from 2 cycle synthetic oil?

You can expect lubrication at a much higher cost. Yes it burns with less smoke and runs a little cleaner which is better for the environment.
You will miss that great 2 stroke smell first thing in the morning.
You will also miss more of the contents of your wallet when you buy it.
Wal Mart TCW-3..... works like a charm for me and keeps more of my wallet contents untouched.

 

[dajohnson53]

Re: What to expect from 2 cycle synthetic oil?

I'm not disputing those who have seen less smoke and cleaner, smoother running. It's just that a few years ago when I ran a couple of gallons of full synthetic (pennzoil) through my pre-mix V6, I really couldn't tell you I noticed anything. Not that it wasn't there (cleaner, smoother, less smoke), it's just that I did not notice it. It could have been my motor or just that I don't notice smallish differences.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: What to expect from 2 cycle synthetic oil?

What size boat is that 40 going on?

 

[quackaddict1]

Re: What to expect from 2 cycle synthetic oil?

The difference between synthetic and regular oils is a whole 3 dollars at the gallon level here, cost shouldn't be an issue. Most of what synthetic will give you you cant see, fouling and BETTER lubrication will increase the longevity of your two stroke.

I have seen first hand crank cases from sthil chainsaws that were tested with synthetic and regular oil, there is no doubt synthetic runs cleaner and prevents buildup better. But oil is oil right?

 

[kenmyfam]

Re: What to expect from 2 cycle synthetic oil?

The difference between synthetic and regular oils is a whole 3 dollars at the gallon level here, cost shouldn't be an issue. Most of what synthetic will give you you cant see, fouling and BETTER lubrication will increase the longevity of your two stroke.

I have seen first hand crank cases from sthil chainsaws that were tested with synthetic and regular oil, there is no doubt synthetic runs cleaner and prevents buildup better. But oil is oil right?

Price difference is huge here. TCW-3 is the recommended oil for 2 stroke outboards. Regular or synthetic they both need to be decarbed regularly. Main reason being that you can not see whether you need a decarb without a teardown.
Under 9 dollars where I get it for the Wal Mart version. Up to 40 dollars here for the top synthetic. No brainer in my book.

 

[mickjetblue]

Re: What to expect from 2 cycle synthetic oil?

The 40hp jet is going on an 1848 jon boat.
I hope to install the console and steering in a couple of days,
and then get it on the water. The boat is rated for a 40hp.

The motor was a prop 40hp, but the lower unit was crashed.
A jet was put on it, with a medium impeller, so it is probably a
40/30 now, or something like that.

 

[dajohnson53]

Re: What to expect from 2 cycle synthetic oil?

The difference between synthetic and regular oils is a whole 3 dollars at the gallon level here, cost shouldn't be an issue. Most of what synthetic will give you you cant see, fouling and BETTER lubrication will increase the longevity of your two stroke.

I have seen first hand crank cases from sthil chainsaws that were tested with synthetic and regular oil, there is no doubt synthetic runs cleaner and prevents buildup better. But oil is oil right?

Where do you live that synthetic is only $3 more than regular TCW3? I'd like to buy some. What oil, and how sold?

Where I live we have:

Walmart house brand TCW3 $7 / gallon
Castrol Super Outboard TCW3 $12 / gallon
Pennzoil full synthetic TCW3 $21 / gallon
Bulk regular grade Johnson/Evinrude $15 gallon

I happen to mostly use Castrol, so it is actually $9 per gallon or 75% more.

Now, if I go to the dealer and buy a prepackaged gallon of non-synthetic OEM oil (Yammie, Quicksilver, BRP), the same oil that costs $15 in bulk, actually it would be the same as Pennzoil synthetic at Walmart, about $21. But who would do that?

I have no reason to doubt the technical findings you're referring to, but the skeptic in me asks: what is the real, practical difference between using properly mixed, regular TCW3 and synthetic in terms of engine wear and cleanliness? Is it REALLY something I'll ever notice in my lifetime - I doubt it. I'm not saying the difference doesn't exist, but is it meaningful in any way to the typical, moderate use recreational 2 stroke boater? If it means an engine lasts 2,500 hours instead of 2,225 is it meaningful or will any of us ever realize it or appreciate the benefit? Frankly, I see little or now carbon build up - with the use I give it - anyway. Should I be rolling my eyes too?

My opinion, is it isn't, certainly not worth the price premium of 2-3X. If it were $3, I'd probably say "why not" and spend the money, but I've never seen it that cheap.

 

[kenmyfam]

Re: What to expect from 2 cycle synthetic oil?

The difference between synthetic and regular oils is a whole 3 dollars at the gallon level here, cost shouldn't be an issue. Most of what synthetic will give you you cant see, fouling and BETTER lubrication will increase the longevity of your two stroke.

I have seen first hand crank cases from sthil chainsaws that were tested with synthetic and regular oil, there is no doubt synthetic runs cleaner and prevents buildup better. But oil is oil right?

These chainsaws, what kind of oil are you referring to ???
You say synthetic and regular oil. What is regular oil ??? 5W 30 ?? 10W 30, Gear oil ?? Penetrating oil ??? shall I go on ??
Explanation not overly clear but "oil is oil" Eh !!!!!

 

[F_R]

Re: What to expect from 2 cycle synthetic oil?

I did a little un-scientific test comparing regular TC-W3 and Full Synthetic TC-W3. With my boat running on the synthetic stuff, I pulled my boat into a sheltered area along the river and tied up to a tree limb. Left the motor idle for maybe 5 minutes. There was a bit of smoke, but not bad. And there was a bit of oil sheen on the water but not bad.

Ok, so then I switched tanks to one with regular TC-W3 in it. Within 5 minutes, the whole dad-gum cypress swamp was full of smoke clear to the tree-tops.

Ok, second test: I flicked a couple of drops of synthetic fuel mix on the water surface. It produced the typical sheen, which spread out about 5 or 6 feet and quickly disappeared. Repeating with a couple of drops of regular TC-W3 produced a rainbow sheen that spread clear across the river.

No, I cannot tell any difference in the way the motor runs. My motor is a 1984 Johnson 35 that I bought new and it has never been decarboned, nor can I see why it should need it now. With that logic, I don't see any need to get all excited about carbon buildup either way. At my age, I don't have to be concerned about it lasting another 24 years

With my little motor being able to give me a whole day's boating on the river on a half tank of gas, cost isn't an issue to me either. Obviously it could be if I were running one of those big gas-eating monisters. (Take note, you guys with the big fancy boats).

I am not a tree-hugger, far from it. But I am willing to do my little bit to be responsible for my actions. Besides, I get a lot fewer stares at the launching ramp when I start it up without that big cloud of smoke.

 

[quackaddict1]

Re: What to expect from 2 cycle synthetic oil?

These chainsaws, what kind of oil are you referring to ???
You say synthetic and regular oil. What is regular oil ??? 5W 30 ?? 10W 30, Gear oil ?? Penetrating oil ??? shall I go on ??
Explanation not overly clear but "oil is oil" Eh !!!!!

Two stroke oil, as all current chain saws are two stroke design, nearly identical in function as our two stroke outboards. Only the 4- Mix motors found on some of the trimmers can be considered 4 stroke, and those still use a 50:1 mix ratio.

decrabing is a normal maintenance thing on motors like yours and mine, I am referring to the guts of the motor, pistons, ports, cranks, and so forth. All will have more buildup with a standard ash based oil.

Pricing diff was seen between mercury quciksilver oil and the penzoil synthetic blend at walmart. I did notice that another synthetic blend was considerably more expensive.

 

[quackaddict1]

Re: What to expect from 2 cycle synthetic oil?

I forgot to add, the parts I handled were run at WOT for 500 hours.

 

[SnappingTurtle]

Re: What to expect from 2 cycle synthetic oil?

Where I live we have:

Walmart house brand TCW3 $7 / gallon
Castrol Super Outboard TCW3 $12 / gallon
Pennzoil full synthetic TCW3 $21 / gallon
Bulk regular grade Johnson/Evinrude $15 gallon

I realize the synthetic oil looks expensive through your eyes, and I understand.

But I can't get anything but “full synthetic” now in Germany, and I pay more for a Liter of it, than you guys do for a Gallon. I can't hardly find two stroke oil at all anymore.

I wished I had your problems.

They closed all the Wally Worlds in Germany! Only country in the world where Wally couldn't make any money. The Germans boycotted them out of business, and with them went my last sure fire source for normal prices for this stuff.

 

[dajohnson53]

Re: What to expect from 2 cycle synthetic oil?

...

Pricing diff was seen between mercury quciksilver oil and the penzoil synthetic blend at walmart. I did notice that another synthetic blend was considerably more expensive.

You said the $3 price difference was between regular oil and synthetic. Now you're saying synthetic blend - that's a different product. All synthetic blend oil is quite a bit cheaper than full synthetic.

What's your price comparison between regular oil and full synthetic at K Mart?

I have used a lot of the cheaper gallons of Quicksilver oil - but then I noticed it's a multipurpose oil, at least the stuff I've seen.

 

[j_martin]

Re: What to expect from 2 cycle synthetic oil?

The difference between the Quicksilver Oil recommended by the manufacturer, and PennZoil full synthetic is a few bucks a gallon. I run the XR4 real hard, so I use the PennZoil, fairly rich, at VRO + 125:1, which would put it at about 40:1 WOT and 70:1 at idle.

The basic difference between full synthetic of any kind, and a blend oil or synth/blend is that that each molecule in the synthetic is the same as every other molecule in the oil, with extremely predictable characteristics. The monoculture of it actually greatly extends the usefull thermal range of the product. A blend has some components that fail with heat, and some that fail to perform when cold, thus limiting the range of protection and lubrication.

In My Experience, the PennZoil runs cleaner, smokes less, and fouls plugs less.

hope it helps
John

 

[kenmyfam]

Re: What to expect from 2 cycle synthetic oil?

So the price difference between the Wal Mart brand at $7 a gallon and a "full synthetic" is ????????
Well here a full synthetic is around the $40 a gallon mark. Blends do not count as they are not "full synthetic"
I appreciate that the full synthetic can be better for the environment and if they ever get the price a little closer I will certainly consider it.

 

[quackaddict1]

Re: What to expect from 2 cycle synthetic oil?

I was actually in walmart today, getting oil for my two stroke. FULL synthetic by quicksilver was going for 24 dollars and change, the regular quick silver oil was going for 21 dollars and change. The penzoil FULL synthetic was at 25 dollars and some cents.

The blend claim was my mistake, the brands I looked at are all full synthetic. I will say that some manufacturers use a blend as a mid range oil, such as Sthil.

Cheap oil has lots of ash in the mix, and your motor will run dirtier as a result.

 

[kenmyfam]

Re: What to expect from 2 cycle synthetic oil?

Agreed it will run dirtier.
Seafoam can take care of that.
But at over 3 times the price it is not really "drawing customers" especially around here.
If "better for the environment" gas was available at 3 times the price I know what most of us wold buy !!!!

 

[dajohnson53]

Re: What to expect from 2 cycle synthetic oil?

I was actually in walmart today, getting oil for my two stroke. FULL synthetic by quicksilver was going for 24 dollars and change, the regular quick silver oil was going for 21 dollars and change. The penzoil FULL synthetic was at 25 dollars and some cents.

The blend claim was my mistake, the brands I looked at are all full synthetic. I will say that some manufacturers use a blend as a mid range oil, such as Sthil.

Cheap oil has lots of ash in the mix, and your motor will run dirtier as a result.

Well if you're comparing the outrageously overpriced OEM non-synthetic oils with full synthetics, you are correct in the $3 price difference. I've seen the same thing locally - the "normal" quicksilver at ~$21 vs the Quicksilver Super Premium or Pennzoil full synthetic for $24-25 and I have no doubt there would be a similar relationship between outrageously pre-packaged gallons of BRP, Yammie, etc. and Pennzoil synthetic.

But any other non-OEM, good quality TCW3 and even bulk OEM oils are many dollars less expensive than synthetics, sometimes 1/3 to 1/2 the cost, and meets every standard required for that certification.

As for your statement about cheap oil, ash and burning dirty...The TCW3 certification is an ashless oil. There are some that are labeled TCW3, but also "multipurpose" and they can be low ash rather than no ash. But that particular factor has nothing to do with cost. I believe you'll find multipurpose oil to be cheap (i.e. pennzoil) or expensive (i.e. non-synthetic Quicksilver).

But I believe any oil desginated strictly TCW3 and not labeled for multipurpose use in water cooled and air cooled engines, is by definition ashless regardless of price. I am not familiar with any study that shows that more expensive TCW3 oil actually "burns cleaner" than cheaper stuff. I'd be interested in seeing that though if you've seen it.

I don't believe for a minute that the "cheap" Castrol TCW3 that I use burns any dirtier than the far more expensive non-synthetic BRP, Yamaha, or other more expensive non-synthetic oils.