what's wrong with this picture?

sangerwaker

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Joined
Jul 29, 2004
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2,059
Re: what's wrong with this picture?

Wait a sec,,,Didn't my dad tell me once that .410 PISTOLS were illegal? Just occured to me as I read JB's post. I haven't fired a gun in years, but my pops and I used to do a little huntin and I recall him saying he wanted a .410 pistol, but they were illegal. Are they legal or not? :confused:
 

fixin

Senior Chief Petty Officer
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Apr 23, 2004
Messages
775
Re: what's wrong with this picture?

The barrel is tapered the wrong way
 

Bondo

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Messages
71,103
Re: what's wrong with this picture?

Didn't my dad tell me once that .410 PISTOLS were illegal?
It may be a State Thing............<br /><br />Federally,...<br />You Can shoot Rifle, or Shot shells in a Pistol..........
 

Tinkerer

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Mar 15, 2003
Messages
760
Re: what's wrong with this picture?

I don't see how the foresight works. No blade above the mount to align with the backsight. Unless you're supposed to look through the yellow fluorescent thingy.
 

SpinnerBait_Nut

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Re: what's wrong with this picture?

If you want some info on the 44/40 read on, be warned you might need a snack or a nap first. :D <br />________________________________________________<br />THE .44-40 WINCHESTER (.44WCF)<br /><br />"Winchester '73, The Gun That Won The West" had as its most serious chambering, the .44 Winchester Center Fire. Introduced in the same year as the .45 Colt, the .44-40 looks much like a .45 that has been necked down to .44 giving a slightly bottlenecked cartridge for ease of feeding in the lever action Winchester. <br /><br />Something was just not quite right for the two gun man who had to buy two different cartridges for his sixgun and carbine, and since the .44-40 and .45 Colt were both loaded with 40 grains of blackpowder over 200 and 255 grain bullets respectively, and since the .44-40 brass was only .020" longer than .45 Colt, it made a lot of sense to chamber the Model P sixgun for the .44-40 and this was done in 1878. Although the .45 was never officially labeled the Peacemaker, the .44-40 Colt sixguns were barrel marked "COLT FRONTIER SIXSHOOTER".<br /><br />In popularity, the .44-40 was second only to the .45 Colt in chamberings of the Colt Single Action followed by the .38-40 (.38WCF) and .32-20 (.32WCF), both of which were also chambered in the Model '73 Winchester. All three WCF cartridges were chambered in the beautiful little Model '92 Winchester carbine, but were totally eclipsed with the coming of smokeless powder and the ultra-modern .30-30 in 1894.<br /><br />Colt made something over 150,000 .44-40 Frontier Sixshooters, and in 1888 introduced their Flat Top Target Model. These were simply Single Action Armys with the top of the frame flattened and the installation of a rear sight moveable for windage, as furnished on the original Ruger Single-Sixes in 1953. Elevation was accomplished by a movable blade in the front sight held in place by a screw. Very crude by today's standards, but a start towards modern target sighted revolvers. Less than 1000 Flat Top Target Models were made with only 21 being in .44WCF.<br /><br />Colt also chambered the big New Service double action revolver in .44-40, and Smith made a few Frontier Models in both single action and double action in .44-40 and a few Triple-Locks also saw chambering in .44WCF. By 1941, the Colt Single Action was removed from production and the .44-40 was dead and buried and looked like it would stay that way.<br /><br />When Colt resumed production of the Colt Single Action in 1955, followed by the modernized version of the Flat Top Target, the New Frontier, in 1962, the calibers were .45 Colt, .357 Magnum, .38 Special, and .44 Special. None were produced in .44-40. The Colt died again in 1974, only to be resurrected in 1978. This time before it was removed from production for the third time, it was once again chambered in .44-40 in both Single Action and New Frontier versions with a few Sheriff's Models being made with both .44-40 and .44 Special cylinders.<br /><br />The Seville was also produced in very small quantities in .44-40 with a few dual cylinder .44 Magnum/.44-40 revolvers being made. All sixguns chambered for the .44-40 now are being brought in from Italy by such companies as EMF and Cimarron. I have had experience with four .44-40 Italian made sixguns, a three-inch Sheriff's Model, a five and one-half inch Dakota, a seven and one-half inch Bisley replica, and a seven and one-half inch Remington copy. All four shot extremely well with the Bisley capable of one hole groups at 25 yards and the Remington capable of one-inch groups at the same distance. <br /><br />A number of years ago I read a test report on the Remington copy in .44-40 in which the author got three to four inch groups at 25 yards with factory ammo in the 1875 Remington copy. I expected the same when I received my nickle-plated .44-40, but I slugged the bore first and found it to be .431". Since factory jacketed bullets run .426" in the .44-40, it is easy to see why the accuracy was so poor. By using cast bullets of .431-432", the Remington rewarded me with one-inch groups.<br /><br />Many years ago, I purchased a "patina" Bisley through Shotgun News for $160. It proved to be in good condition, but the bore slugged .432" and the cylinders would not accept bullets larger than .428". The old barrel came off, was replaced by a seven and one-half inch .44 Special barrel of .426" groove diameter and that old Bisley has given groups of one-half inch using 9.0 grains of Unique and the Lyman #42798 .44-40 flat-point bullet. <br /><br />These two experiences spotlight one of the problems in loading for the .44-40. There seems to be no real standard for barrel groove diameter, with specimens running from .426" all the way up to .432". Sixguns in .44-40 chambering must be measured as to groove diameter and treated accordingly.<br /><br />That is certainly not the only problem in loading for the .44-40. Since it is a bottle-necked cartridge, carbide dies, so prevalent and so taken for granted for straight-walled pistol cartridges, are out and the extra steps of lubing and then wiping the cases free of lubricant must be added to reloading the .44-40. A small nuisance to be sure, but a nuisance none the less.<br /><br />The worst problem with the .44-40 is necks that are paper thin. I lose a few cases everytime I reload, always for the same reason, I ruin the case necks either by starting a bullet crooked or getting a case off center and hitting the mouth on the bottom of a die. With other pistol cartridges, one can usually stop quickly enough to keep from ruining the case. With the .44-40, the slightest mistake and the case is gone. <br /><br />And I emphasize mistake; by working slowly and carefully, cases will not be ruined. I'm just not that patient and I have to pay the price of a few lost cases each time the .44-40 brass is reloaded. This week's run of 164 cases is now down to 162, one case lost as the mouth hit the bottom of the decapping die, the other crumpled by a bullet as the neck was not expanded quite enough. I started with 200 cases in 1981. If .44-40 brass was no longer available., I would certainly be more careful.<br /><br />Like the .45 Colt, the .44-40 has also been saddled with the "weak brass" syndrome, and like the .45 Colt, the problem is not brass but the sixguns that these cartridges have been chambered for dating back more than 100 years. A long time standard load for the .44-40 with the Lyman #42798 bullet has been 18.5 grains of #2400. This load has been published in numerous books and magazines. This load proved to be too hot in my New Frontier and I have settled on 17.5 grains of #2400 as a maximum load with the Hercules powder. <br /><br />Older relaoding manuals have seperate sections for reloading the .44-40 for the Model 92 Winchester and they list loads that use nine grains more #2400 than my maximum sixgun load and eight grains more than my maximum H4227 load. So much for the weakness of .44-40 brass, BUT such rifle type loads would be like hand grenades in sixguns. When using reloading manuals, especially some of the older ones, please make sure the .44-40 section is for sixguns.<br /><br />The original loading of 40 grains of blackpowder cannot be duplicated in modern solid head .44-40 brass. The most I can get into a case and seat the #42798 bullet properly is 35.0 grains of FFFg which gives slightly over 900 fps. The same volume of Pyrodex P raises the miuzzle velocity to 1000 fps and both loads will group in two inches at 25 yards.<br /><br />My favorite powders for the .44-40 are Unique and H4227. Unique and Lyman's #42798 bullet just seem made for each other and in tests with three different .44-40 sixguns, all with seven and one-half inch barrels,the following results, five shots at 25 yards, were obtained. The Remington is a replica from Uberti, the Bisley is a 1912 manufactured Colt with a new .44 Special barrel, the New Frontier is a .44 Special with an extra .44-40 cylinder.<br /><br />REMINGTON<br />BULLET #42798 <br />LOAD 9.0 GR. UNIQUE<br />GROUP 1 1/4"<br /><br /><br />BISLEY<br />BULLET #42798<br />LOAD 9.0 GR. UNIQUE<br />GROUP 5/8"<br /><br />COLT NF<br />BULLET #42798<br />LOAD 9.0 GR. UNIQUE<br />GROUP 1"<br /> <br /><br />This is outstanding accuracy by anyone's standards for any caliber and certainly for any revolver, be it of modern manufacture, replica, or seventy-five plus years old. No one can fault the .44-40 when it comes to accuracy.<br /><br />Switching to H4227, which seems to deliver accuracy nearly equal to Unique, I prefer 20.0 grains for slightly over 1100 fps. Hodgdon's H4227 has been the answer for a number of large capacity cases such as the .44-40 and .45 Colt, and 19.0-20.0 grains of H4227, like 9.0-10.0 grains of Unique, performs exceptionally well in the these two old big bore veterans. In some sixguns of these two calibers, H4227 has been the only powder that would give good accuracy. <br /><br />Winchester's WW231 is another favorite with the .44-40 and 8.0 grains of this fast burning powder gives slightly over 1000 fps with the #42798 Lyman bullet and shoots into less than one-inch with the standard five shots at 25 yards.<br /><br />Two "heavyweight" bullets that I use in the .44-40, are Hornady's swaged 240 grain hollow point semi-wadcutter and Bull-X's 240 grain bevel base semi-wadcutter. Surprizingly, the soft Hornady hollow point does not lead my New Frontier barrel even when driven over 1000 fps. For serious defensive work, either of these bullets at 900-1000 fps would be my choice, although the chance of ever employing the .44-40 for this would be extremely remote. <br /><br />The appeal of the .44-40 is nostalgic, not practical. However, it is a favorite cartridge of two sixgunners, and fellow gunwriters, that I respect immensely, namely Hal Swiggett and Mike Venturino. When they say the .44-40 is a good cartridge, we best listen.<br /><br />Anything that can be accomplished by the .44-40 can be topped by the .44 Special . However it is one of those cartridges that hold a certain fascination and if power were the only criteria in a sixgun, only magnums would be sold. Such is not the case however.<br /><br />Although not thought of as a target load, my tests over the past ten years have shown the .44-40 to be capable of target accuracy even in unrefined single action sixguns. And although more deer, and larger game, than anyone could count have fallen to it, it is certainly not a good choice for hunting. However, it is an excellent small game and varmint load and I have taken many a big Idaho jack with mine. It is one of those relaxing cartridges that I find myself appreciating more and more for plinking, woods loafing, and just plain enjoyment. When the wrist has taken all the punishment it can stand from full house .44 Magnum and .454 loads, out comes the enjoyable big bore, the .44-40. <br /><br />A few years back, I decided to make a thoroughly modern .44-40 by converting an Abilene to a .44 Magnum/.44-40 dual cylindered sixgun. Obtaining an extra .44 Magnum cylinder, I had it rechambered to .44-40 and J.D. Jones also sent along a .44 Magnum T/C barrel that had been rechambered to .44-40. I safely attained 1350 fps in the seven and one-half inch Abilene, and 1750 fps in the ten-inch T/C, both using a hard cast 200 grain bullet. No problems were encountered with the brass as such, but a problem did surface.<br /><br />If I had done my homework first, I would have consulted a chart of case dimensions and found that the .44 Magnum measures .455" outside neck diameter, and the .44-40, with its paper thin neck and designed for .426" bullets, goes only .443". That means that any .44 Magnum that is rechambered to .44-40 is already at least .012" oversize at the neck portion of the cylinder. The constant expansion when fired, and then resizing back down, results in a high rate of brass loss from neck failure. For conversion to .44-40, it is best to start with a .357 or .41 Magnum.<br /><br />HIGH PERFORMANCE LOADS .44-40 WCF<br /><br />FIREARM: COLT NEW FRONTIER BARREL LENGTH: 7 1/2" TEMPERATURE: 80 DEGREES <br />BRASS: WINCHESTER .44-40 PRIMER: WINCHESTER WLP CHRONO: OEHLER #35 <br /><br /> <br /><br />BULLET/LOAD MV <br />LYMAN #42798/8.0 GRAINS UNIQUE 814 <br />9.0 986 <br />10.0 1107 <br /> <br />9.0 GRAINS HERCO 808 <br />10.0 989 <br />11.0 1144 <br /> <br />16.5 GRAINS #2400 1206 <br />17.5 1284 <br /> <br />18.0 GRAINS H4227 1062 <br />19.0 1135 <br />20.0 1185 <br /> <br />35.0 GRAINS FFFg 909 <br /> <br />31.0 GRAINS PYRODEX P 1010 <br /> <br />6.5 GRAINS WW231 752 <br />7.0 809 <br />7.5 910 <br />8.0 1025 <br /> <br />5.5 GRAINS BULLSEYE 793 <br />6.5 910 <br /> <br />6.5 GRAINS HP-38 779 <br />7.5 903 <br /> <br />8.5 GRAINS HS-6 687 <br />9.5 771 <br /><br />LYMAN'S #42798, NOW #427098, STANDARD .44-40 CONICAL FLAT POINT OF 205 GRAINS.
 

TilliamWe

Banned
Joined
Dec 21, 2004
Messages
6,579
Re: what's wrong with this picture?

This is a joke:<br /><br />The only thing wrong with it, that I can see, is that it's on a Boating discussion website! :D <br /><br />But seriously Barlow, how long you gonna make people guess?
 

Dunaruna

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May 2, 2003
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6,027
Re: what's wrong with this picture?

There's no handle or trigger or butt.
 

Barlow

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Mar 11, 2003
Messages
1,794
Re: what's wrong with this picture?

pardon guys .. got busy this afternoon .. let me read up and see
 

Barlow

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Mar 11, 2003
Messages
1,794
Re: what's wrong with this picture?

Ok .. this was a toughy and I didn't want to make it obvious.<br /><br />Where I'm refering to is the marking of the barrel .. specifically -> 44/40 cal. and the cartridge itself.<br /><br />... here take a look and see what I'm refering to - -<br /><br />
28tcon
<br /><br />
28tbt4
<--44/40 schematic<br /><br />anybody notice a questionable situation ?
 

Boomyal

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Aug 16, 2003
Messages
12,072
Re: what's wrong with this picture?

Yeah, the 44/40 is necked. Are you thinking that the .410 won't fit because of the necked chamber?<br />It'd be interesting to try it. Don't forget the plastic .410 shell is flexible.
 

one more cast

Captain
Joined
May 6, 2002
Messages
3,143
Re: what's wrong with this picture?

The 44/40 is a necked cartridge. But whats wrong? you can shoot .410's in a 45 also. What are the specs of the .410 cartridge? Isn't it only .41?
 

Barlow

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Mar 11, 2003
Messages
1,794
Re: what's wrong with this picture?

here's the deal as I see it guys.. the chambering of the barrel isn't necked.. :eek: <br /><br />A .44 caliber has a .459 od case (at throat) where a 44/40 caliber has a .443 od after the necking.. we're talking brass problems here! <br /><br />Even more - the wall of the 44/40 cartidge is substantially thinner than std .44 brass ...<br /><br />leads me to think that someone fell asleep at the drafting table, eh?<br /><br /> :confused:
 

Boomyal

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Re: what's wrong with this picture?

Originally posted by Barlow:<br /> here's the deal as I see it guys.. the chambering of the barrel isn't necked.. :eek: <br /><br />A .44 caliber has a .459 od case (at throat) where a 44/40 caliber has a .443 od after the necking.. we're talking brass problems here! <br /><br />Even more - the wall of the 44/40 cartidge is substantially thinner than std .44 brass ...<br /><br />leads me to think that someone fell asleep at the drafting table, eh?<br /><br /> :confused:
Well now Barlow! I hardly think that was all plain as mud. :p
 

JB

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Mar 25, 2001
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45,907
Re: what's wrong with this picture?

The .410 fits and can be safely fired.<br /><br />It doesn't say .44 Remington Mag., It says .44-40.<br /><br />Dimensions of the .44 remington Mag are irrelevant.<br /><br />Just as one can safely fire .22 shorts in a .22 LR chamber in non-semi-auto rifle or pistol.<br /><br />It may be that shells from a .44-40 fired in this gun expand at the "neck" and cannot be then reloaded and fired in a standard .44-40 chamber, I doubt it. I suspect that the plastic portion of the .410 will fit the .444 portion of a standard .44-40 chamber so long as the rifling does not start short of the .410 shotshell (not cartridge)length.<br /><br />It is clear that a .410-.44Rem. Mag. can also be fired from one gun properly chambered. It is darned scary that it appears that a .44RM can be chambered and fired in an exploding .410 shotgun.
 

beezee28

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Jun 3, 2004
Messages
804
Re: what's wrong with this picture?

Barlow, so what you are saying is that basically this gun can fire both types of cartridge, the 44 mag and the 44/40 and the .410???. :confused: :confused:
 

Barlow

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Mar 11, 2003
Messages
1,794
Re: what's wrong with this picture?

Pardon me for the late response guys.. took the day off and went out fishing on Columbia Lake :) <br /><br />I've tried posting this a few times now and 'puter is acting funky and I keep losing long winded posts. I've just lost my patience with this darned thing so pardon the short and blunt respone here..<br /><br />- The gun is chambered for the .410 shotshell - the first #.<br />- The cylinder on this revolver is l - o - n - g due to the 2-3/4" minumum lenth (without crimp expansion) of the .410 shotshell.<br />- The 44/40 cartridge is not only necked, its short as well. I used the previous pix above to illustrate the size and necking of the 44/40.<br /><br />- The combination of the 44/40 cartridge being much shorter than .410 shotshell and being necked on top of it all deem this cartridge invalid for use in this revolver.. the tolerances just don't jive.<br /><br />The barrel should read: .410 GA - .45 Long Colt
 

pjc

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Jun 29, 2003
Messages
1,856
Re: what's wrong with this picture?

That is a Taurus revolver bbl. Yes, bbl should read 410 gauge...45 Colt..Did you know you can get derringers chambered in 45 Colt/410 shot shell?<br /><br />Click the link to read about it. <br /> <br /> web page
 

pjc

Lieutenant Commander
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Messages
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Re: what's wrong with this picture?

oh yea, scroll down the page for the story.<br /><br /> 1911 Web Log
 
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