Why do so many older boats have no titles?

[starcraftkid]

Re: Why do so many older boats have no titles?

I'm in NJ also, it took me over 3 years to get a title for a boat that I bought new. The finance company lost the certificate of original and went out of business during the fight for a title after it was paid off.

NJ absolutely refused to issue a title. Their procedure for getting a title is for abandoned boats and lost titles, not new boats with the title never issued in this state or boats titled elsewhere.

When they checked the VIN the boat didn't exist in their system. No number of required newspaper ads obviously were a worthless requirement, and no other state showed a record of this boat. In the three years of it being financed, both the selling dealer, bank, and manufacturer had closed up. I could have continued to just renew the registration but they wouldn't issue me a title since there was no trace of the original and no "Lean Satisfied" stamp on the original Certificate of Origin from the bank, which was in CA.
After 34 months of inspections, court papers, newspaper ads, and other various steps required by the DMV here I gave up and attempted to go through an out of state title service but since there were recent inspections for a lost or no title, they refused to accept that paperwork.
I finally gave up, removed the original number plate, took it back to the Marine police and had another hull inspection done, this time they issued me a form that stated that no record or HIN were found, and that an NCIC check turned up negative. I took this to the DMV along with a notarized bill of sale from a buddy out of state for a Misc. boat hull, they refused the first notarized bill of sale saying that he needed to state that he never had a title and had never registered the boat, with the new bill of sale in hand, they issued me a new title and new HIN number. All of this was for a new boat I bought new. I sold the boat soon after since in the meanwhile I had bought another boat to use. The problem is they make you do things the wrong way, there is no way you should have to go through all that for a boat title.
With the number of abandoned boats in this state, they should be glad that someone is willing to take responsibility for one. If I never bothered to try to get a title for that boat, I very well could have just continued to renew the registration and use it, but I couldn't sell it.
They didn't recognize me as the owner since the boat was originally financed and there was no title to prove the load was satisfied. All of my bank statements, including a letter from the bank stating the CO was lost and they were trying to get me a duplicate, nor the loan satisfied and thank you letter were worth a thing to the DMV.

I think your most likely doing the right thing by walking away, the amount of grief they put you through is certainly not worth the hassle. Especially since there's so many boats for sale these days. Bide your time and one will come along.

 

[JEBar]

Re: Why do so many older boats have no titles?

back in '04 we bought our boat/trailer from a dealer .... the trailer had a title, the boat didn't .... until reading this thread having a title for the boat I hadn't crossed my mind ..... over the years we've bought and sold a good number of boats and have never had a title for any of them .... they have all been registered and had the proper numbers with date sticker .... I don't know if NC will title a boat or not, guess that is something I need to check .... thanks for bringing up the topic

Jim

 

[screwloose]

Re: Why do so many older boats have no titles?

In states without boat titles, what is to stop someone from just getting a bill of sale from a buddy to legitimize the sale?
How can they check to see who owned it last if it came from out of state.
I know that here in NJ they don't title smaller boats, under 12', but you need a notarized bill of sale from the last registered owner.
If the boat was never registered, as in one that was bought new and only used as a row boat by the last owner, there apparently is no way to sell or register that boat.

Somethine else I found is that NJ didn't require boat titles until sometime in the 80's, they were optional on boats over 12'. So that to me opens up a whole new can of worms, most of the boats I'm looking at have sat for that long, unused, often because the last owner either died or abandoned them. Often the last owner wasn't the last registered owner, the boats could have changed hands a dozen times for all I know. But yet the state has no means of fixing the paperwork. Over the past few weeks I've talked to a half dozen guys that have tried to get titles for boats with unknown histories, they went through the state of NJ procedure for getting a title on an abandoned boat only to be told in the end that the last owner is still alive and that it was up to them to get them to go get a title for the boat.
I don't know about most people, but if I washed my hands of a boat or any vehicle 30 years ago, and someone came knocking on my door wanting the title, which I may or may not still have, I'm not so sure I'd go jumping through hoops to get a new title.
Apparently the lost title procedure is pretty costly.
One person I spoke with got to the point of it being put in front of a judge, only to be told that the titled owner is still in NJ, but they refused to tell him who it was or where they were. Only that it was their responsibility to find proof of ownership. Another person was told by a past owner that although the state listed them as the last registered, titled owner, they had sold the boat to someone else years before, and were not the last legal owner. Another sold the boat out of state, only for it to be returned again by another owner. In either case, they had no legal right to give a bill of sale or obtain a title, making the search a dead end.

Every story I hear just makes me glad I walked away from the deal.

 

[reelfishin]

Re: Why do so many older boats have no titles?

NJ has to be the worst for lost titles of abandoned boats, its as if they don't want you to revive them.
With as fee happy this state is I would have figured they would be glad to be collecting registration on another boat, let alone the title and tax fees.
I have two boats, both were bought new by me years ago, both were used un-powered since new, now I want to register and hang a motor on them, they want proof of ownership. One was a gift from a now deceased relative when I was 12, the other I bought at Sears a few years later. One was used as a pack boat when we went camping, the other was used only with oars.
The only receipt I have is one from Sears, its a generic register receipt for $595 plus sales tax with the items listed being only "Sporting Goods lg itm-- $595.99)
Motor Vehicle Services won't accept that as proof of ownership. They want to see a past registration, and a notarized bill of sale.
One person at the MVS told me to right myself a bill of sale for the boat and have it notarized, I did, but they won't accept that either. I gave up.
A buddy had a boat he found at the dump, he had a buddy make up a bill of sale and they registered it no problem. I think its a matter of who your dealing with. Some will give you a hassle, others will just accept the paperwork and do what is needed to register the boat.
I've gone so far as to have the marine police do a full HIN inspection, which includes an NCIC check, plus a check for any prior owners. Both boats obviously came up clean, they state police gave me a sheet stating that it was clear to issue me a new title but the MVS refused.
I can't imagine what kind of headache one would have if you build your own boat and tried to register it here.
They look at every case as if your trying to do something illegal, as if someone would be stealing a 30 year old boat and then going to try to register it with the HIN number on the hull. If its not stolen, if its not been registered in say the last 10 or 15 years, then for crying out loud just register the thing and collect the money.

 

[JoLin]

Re: Why do so many older boats have no titles?

NJ has to be the worst for lost titles of abandoned boats, its as if they don't want you to revive them.
With as fee happy this state is I would have figured they would be glad to be collecting registration on another boat, let alone the title and tax fees.

I've recently started searching for a small boat in the tri-state area (NY, NJ, CT) and done a little research. NY and NJ have essentially the same requirements and 'catch 22' rules. I won't even LOOK at a boat or trailer that doesn't have a valid title or transferable registration in the name of the current owner. Not worth my time.

Trailers are the worst. Seems like half of them don't have paperwork, but 'can be easily registered as homemade'. Yeah, okay. Tell you what- go ahead and do that and I'll gladly reimburse you whatever fees you had to pay. Call me when it's ready.

And when you do buy a boat, trailer or motor that needs to be documented in your state before YOU can sell it, for heaven's sake just do it. Paperwork (like bills of sale) tends to get misplaced over the years, but state-issued documents can always be replaced.

My .02

 

[screwloose]

Re: Why do so many older boats have no titles?

The trailer is no problem in NJ, NJ does not title trailers that physically weigh less than 2500lbs.
I have two trailers, both factory built, both came under boats with no paperwork. The DMV just called them homemade and gave me my registration. It just the way its been done here forever. If it don't have a motor, they don't worry much about it.
Since there's no title, there's no tax, so I'm sure they just want to collect the registration fee and be done with it.
I've seen ads on CL from people in PA looking for junk trailers with titles, or trailers that have a title but I don't understand what the big deal is. I lived in PA for a number of years and had no problem registering a trailer as homemade. On an item where most manufacturers put the VIN on a foil decal, which falls off in a year or two, there's little to no way to prove where it came from or what it was.

I just don't understand why NJ doesn't treat boats the same way, especially those built prior to 1972 when HIN numbers became standard.

I just bought a 1960 Starcraft, it has a title with the original serial number on the title, but there are no numbers on the hull anywhere. If they were there, they didn't survive several repaints, a new transom and deck and years of use. But since the paperwork can be traced back to the last owner and its got a valid and current registration on it, its no big deal to transfer.
Most of the boats I've looked at were this way, no numbers at all on the hull. They simply didn't put a hull ID number on boats back then.