Why does my gas look like this and is it ok?

[NSBCraig]

Re: Why does my gas look like this and is it ok?

Ethanol cannot suck water out of humid air.

Highly debatable, the marine engine and car guys agree, but the the sources for making ethanol disagree.

 

[Philster]

Re: Why does my gas look like this and is it ok?

Marine formula Stabil is indeed bluish-green. Stabil for Ethanol is **** yellow.

Source: http://www.goldeagle.com/brands/stabil/products.aspx

Given the color of his fuel, I think we can assume he is using the yellow, non-marine version.

Yes, and in the context in which you post, you seem to be correcting me, but I'd prefer if you merely added additional information about Stabil for ethanol as a supplement to what I accurately posted about marine Stabil.

Yes, given the color of his fuel, he wasn't using marine Stabil. Thought that was established.

 

[Philster]

Re: Why does my gas look like this and is it ok?

Highly debatable, the marine engine and car guys agree, but the the sources for making ethanol disagree.

If it were to absorb moisture from the air, it'd be highly impracticable for normal consumer use.

Since this is highly debatable, I'm doing my part to prove at least that part of your comment to be true.
.

 

[spoilsofwar]

Re: Why does my gas look like this and is it ok?

Yes, and in the context in which you post, you seem to be correcting me, but I'd prefer if you merely added additional information about Stabil for ethanol as a supplement to what I accurately posted about marine Stabil.

Yes, given the color of his fuel, he wasn't using marine Stabil. Thought that was established.

Okay, not sure what you're getting at here, since you're admitting that marine stabil has nothing to do with this discussion and that we already established he did not use it, so it's color has no bearing on anything. Saying Marine Stabil is bluish-green was as useful as saying that standard Stabil is red, or that grass is usually green but sometimes gets brown.... I digress,

I will add some additional information, however, as per your request:

Ethanol is a hygroscopic substance. The definition of hygroscopic is that which has the property of attracting and holding water from the surrounding environment. Ethanol does take humidity (moisture, water) from the air surrounding it, absorb it, and holds it in suspension. It holds it in suspension until a point when it becomes critically contaminated with water, at which point phase separation occurs as you correctly noted. E10 gasoline is known to phase separate at 60 degrees F at .5% (by volume) water contamination. This means 3.8 teaspoons of water per gallon can be dissolved into E10 at 60 degrees F before phase separation will occur. As temp increases, the amount of dissolved water allowed before separation occurs increases.

The following is a quote direct from an EPA memo on ethanol as a replacement for MTBE:

"Another way water can enter gasoline is through absorption
from the air. Water, in the form of water vapor, can dissolve in
gasoline. The more humid the air, the faster the water vapor
will dissolve in the gasoline. Due to chemical equilibrium,
however, assuming a constant temperature, phase separation will
never occur if the only source of water is from the air. Only
enough water to saturate the fuel can enter the system, and no
more."

It also states why you do not need to be afraid of ethanol'ed fuel if you are not contaminating your tank with liquid water. Granted, on a boat this is more likely then in a car, but it is not a foregone conclusion.

Read the study here: http://epa.gov/oms/regs/fuels/rfg/waterphs.pdf

The chemical engineer who wrote it is more credible then me, you, or anyone else likely to be posting on iboats regarding this subject, so I'll take his word for it.

 

[UncleWillie]

Re: Why does my gas look like this and is it OK?

Re: Why does my gas look like this and is it OK?

So - UncleWillie - are you saying that since I poured this out of my filter, I have no problem and should not worry about it?

I am saying that if the sample was poured out of the filter, that tells you the condition of the gas in the filter.
Not the condition of the gas in the main tank.

A water separating filter may very well have water and sediment in it.
That is what it is supposed to do.
If you dump the filter into a glass, you are going to get whatever was in the FILTER.
If you want to know what is in the tank, take the sample from the tank!

Water and Sediment poured out of a water separating fuel filter is a non-issue.

This part of Uncle Willies' post is interesting but I have to wonder if it's correct:

"Take a half of a glass/Jar of your clouded fuel and add another 1/4 glass/jar of fresh fuel to it.
Stir/shake a little, you should now be looking at 3/4's of a glass/jar of clear fuel.
The ethanol in the fresh fuel just absorbed the excess water in the old fuel."

I assume this means that although you can't fix phase separation by adding fresh fuel, you can fix early phase separation? And although it wouldn't be as convenient, in theory you could add ethanol straight to the fuel to have the same result? Is that what "gas dryers" do?

Yes, you are correct. Or is that No!??
The more water/alcohol that has separated from the gas, the more alcohol you will need to add to the "Bad!" gas to get it "Dry" again!
Extremely phase separated gas is going to need more Alcohol add than slightly phase separated gas.

If left undisturbed for a period of time, extremely separated gas will form a separation layer on the bottom of the container with a clear layer of straight gas above it.
Slightly separated gas will just remain cloudy. It is just a matter of degrees.

"Dry Gas" Treatments are just a can of Alcohol, often Isopropyl, which can absorb a ton of water.
Dry gas was very popular in the days before E-10.
It has used in winter in the North to prevent the water in the bottom of the tank from freezing up the fuel lines.
I find it humorous that the folks who used to add Dry Gas, now complain about E-10 when they used to be making it themselves.

------------------------
Try the experiment if you are skeptical, (And I hope you are!)

8 ounces of gas will absorb about 20 drops of water.
Add a little more, a few drops at a time, and you will have cloudy gas.
Add more until you have clear gas above the cloudy gas.
Now add 4 more ounces of fresh gas to the mix.
You will be looking at 12 ounces of clear gas again.

I need to make a video of this for as many times as it comes up.

 

[Philster]

Re: Why does my gas look like this and is it ok?

Okay, not sure what you're getting at here, since you're admitting that marine stabil has nothing to do with this discussion and that we already established he did not use it, so it's color has no bearing on anything. Saying Marine Stabil is bluish-green was as useful as saying that standard Stabil is red, or that grass is usually green but sometimes gets brown.... I digress,

I will add some additional information, however, as per your request:

Ethanol is a hygroscopic substance. The definition of hygroscopic is that which has the property of attracting and holding water from the surrounding environment. Ethanol does take humidity (moisture, water) from the air surrounding it, absorb it, and holds it in suspension. It holds it in suspension until a point when it becomes critically contaminated with water, at which point phase separation occurs as you correctly noted. E10 gasoline is known to phase separate at 60 degrees F at .5% (by volume) water contamination. This means 3.8 teaspoons of water per gallon can be dissolved into E10 at 60 degrees F before phase separation will occur. As temp increases, the amount of dissolved water allowed before separation occurs increases.

The following is a quote direct from an EPA memo on ethanol as a replacement for MTBE:

"Another way water can enter gasoline is through absorption
from the air. Water, in the form of water vapor, can dissolve in
gasoline. The more humid the air, the faster the water vapor
will dissolve in the gasoline. Due to chemical equilibrium,
however, assuming a constant temperature, phase separation will
never occur if the only source of water is from the air. Only
enough water to saturate the fuel can enter the system, and no
more."

It also states why you do not need to be afraid of ethanol'ed fuel if you are not contaminating your tank with liquid water. Granted, on a boat this is more likely then in a car, but it is not a foregone conclusion.

Read the study here: http://epa.gov/oms/regs/fuels/rfg/waterphs.pdf

The chemical engineer who wrote it is more credible then me, you, or anyone else likely to be posting on iboats regarding this subject, so I'll take his word for it.

Good info.

 

[spoilsofwar]

Re: Why does my gas look like this and is it ok?

Lets reel this in a little bit for the OP, and help him with his specific issue:

OP, if it were my tank, I would drain it. If you don't already have a layer of straight water at the bottom of your tank due to phase separation, you will sooner or later. That fuel has obviously absorbed an amount of water significant enough to cause the clouding you see, and it may be at the point of separation (did you let the glass sit for a while and see if it did?) or it may need just a bit more moisture to get there (via a little liquid water introduced, or a drop in temperature enough to lower the percentage of allowable water in the fuel).

Now, if the tank has only a small amount of fuel in it, and it has not phase separated already, you will be fine just filling it up with fresh gas - use E10! - and the new gas with the ethanol will lower the ratio of water in solution to fuel, bringing you "back from the brink", so to speak.

That brings us to the sediment. The sediment comes from somewhere - your tank, your line fittings, the filter and housing; somewhere. I know you don't seem concerned with it because it came out of the filter itself and thus, and I agree with this part, some of it is the non-filtered side fuel, it would still be enough to make me not want it anywhere in my fuel system. If your tank is metal, I would be doubly concerned.

I change my fuel filters twice per year; once mid-season and once at the end of the season. Thats just me, and it may be pointless, but it meets or exceeds any manufacturer's schedule. Those are generally once a year.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Why does my gas look like this and is it ok?

I find it humorous that the folks who used to add Dry Gas, now complain about E-10 when they used to be making it themselves.

Dry Gas is typically isopropyl alcohol and isopropyl will not cause phase separation like ethanol.

If you have 10% ethanol and get phase separation, adding more fuel will not help. Once you have phase separation it is not reversible.

Another thing that you have to worry about is that the saturation point for the water in the ethanol fuel is not linear. 10% ethanol fuel will hold more than double the water of 5% fuel.

OP needs to change his filters every year.
If the fuel in his tank looks like this, he needs to drain and clean his tank. There are no other options.

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: Why does my gas look like this and is it ok?

Yes, and in the context in which you post, you seem to be correcting me, but I'd prefer if you merely added additional information about Stabil for ethanol as a supplement to what I accurately posted about marine Stabil.

Yes, given the color of his fuel, he wasn't using marine Stabil. Thought that was established.

I use blue startron. My gas does not turn blue. I find it hard to accept that an ounce of light weight colored liquid per 16 gallons would noticeably change the color of the gas. Not like the pint of heavy dark oil in 6 gallons of gas does.

 

[spoilsofwar]

Re: Why does my gas look like this and is it ok?

Honestly, Stabil is a Golden Eagle product... The masters of getting people to buy 5 different bottles that all do the same thing (or, do nothing). And the different variations are probably made about the same as the different kinds of Duff beer:



... with the exception of whatever it is they use to color each version different.

 

[JASinIL2006]

Re: Why does my gas look like this and is it ok?

If you have 10% ethanol and get phase separation, adding more fuel will not help. Once you have phase separation it is not reversible.

Living in a state (Illinois) where only ethanol is sold, I've been following this thread and it's very informative. One thing I don't understand: if ethanol-treated fuel can absorb a certain amount of water, either in a gaseous form (e.g., humid air) or liquid form (e.g., condensation on the walls of the fuel tank), why isn't phase separation reversible? If E10 can absorb liquid water, why would it matter if that liquid water was the product of condensation or was from previously saturated ethanol? Not being argumentative, just trying to understand...

Thanks!
Jim

 

[spoilsofwar]

Re: Why does my gas look like this and is it ok?

why isn't phase separation reversible?

It is reversible... But there are issues.

How much water is actually in there? How much fuel will we need to bring the water % by volume within allowable tollerance? Will we be able to fit it in the tank that is already partially full? What is the temperature now, and what will it be later? What is the actual ethanol content of the E10 fuel you're planning on adding to reverse the PS (hint: it may be 10%, or it may be slightly less, or it may be slightly more). How much water is already in the "fresh" E10 fuel you plan on adding? (hint: Some!) Will we be able to adequately mix the old, separated fuel, with the new, fresh fuel, to induce phase separation reversal and get that water back into solution?

There are products that are designed to reverse PS. They are mainly commercial/industrial, and sold in huge quantities meant to treat 10,000 gal underground gas station tanks. Youtube "phase separation reversal" or something to that effect and you will get the phone book.

The bottomline is that for our, relatively small tanks, it is easier, safer, and probably smarter to drain, clean, and start fresh, then trying to do gorilla math and fix an already bad situation. It is chemically reversable... It is not practically reversable.

 

[JASinIL2006]

Re: Why does my gas look like this and is it ok?

It is reversible... But there are issues.

How much water is actually in there? How much fuel will we need to bring the water % by volume within allowable tollerance? Will we be able to fit it in the tank that is already partially full? What is the temperature now, and what will it be later? What is the actual ethanol content of the E10 fuel you're planning on adding to reverse the PS (hint: it may be 10%, or it may be slightly less, or it may be slightly more). How much water is already in the "fresh" E10 fuel you plan on adding? (hint: Some!) Will we be able to adequately mix the old, separated fuel, with the new, fresh fuel, to induce phase separation reversal and get that water back into solution?

There are products that are designed to reverse PS. They are mainly commercial/industrial, and sold in huge quantities meant to treat 10,000 gal underground gas station tanks. Youtube "phase separation reversal" or something to that effect and you will get the phone book.

The bottomline is that for our, relatively small tanks, it is easier, safer, and probably smarter to drain, clean, and start fresh, then trying to do gorilla math and fix an already bad situation. It is chemically reversable... It is not practically reversable.

That makes sense... essentially, it's the same issue for any water absorption, regardless of whether the water is in the tank from phase separation or any other reason. Ethanol-treated gas can only carry so much water and it's difficult/impossible to tell how much new/fresh/H20-free gas would be needed to allow any water to be absorbed. That's exactly what I was asking about, thanks!

Jim

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Why does my gas look like this and is it ok?

That makes sense... essentially, it's the same issue for any water absorption, regardless of whether the water is in the tank from phase separation or any other reason. Ethanol-treated gas can only carry so much water and it's difficult/impossible to tell how much new/fresh/H20-free gas would be needed to allow any water to be absorbed. That's exactly what I was asking about, thanks!

Jim

What makes it worse is that you could double the amout of non-ethanol fuel and cause phase seperation. Take a look at the charts I posted above.

 

[Philster]

Re: Why does my gas look like this and is it ok?

I use blue startron. My gas does not turn blue. I find it hard to accept that an ounce of light weight colored liquid per 16 gallons would noticeably change the color of the gas. Not like the pint of heavy dark oil in 6 gallons of gas does.

Oh, I get it. I understand. Problem is...

I've seen people overuse products before. Nothing would surprise me when it comes to fuel and how it magically became a certain color. People always leave info out!

 

[UncleWillie]

Re: Why does my gas look like this and is it ok?

Before the OP starts disposing of a tank of gas, keep in mind he has not looked at what is in the gas tank.
He removed a very used Water Separating Fuel Filter and poured it's contents into a glass.
The tanks may be clean as a whistle, or not, we have NO information as to what is in the actual fuel tank!

Way too many fuel myths going around....

Phase separation is completely reversible, it can be easily demonstrated by anyone!

E-10 gas contains UP TO 10% Ethanol.
It may have less, It may have none!
What you actually get when you buy gas is an unknown.
It would be safe to "Assume" you are getting at least 5% and less than 10%.
If the station gets a fuel delivery at least once a week, any pre-existing water in the the fuel should be minuscule.

The amount of water seen in his fuel is very minimal.
A water/fuel seperation line would begin to form in water in the time it took him to take all the pictures.
The fact that the fuel is cloudy means that separation has occured.
The seperated water just stays in suspension because it is so slight.

 

[bnicov]

Re: Why does my gas look like this and is it ok?

That came out of the fuel filter, looks like it's done it's job. Next, put in a new filter, run the boat until it's as close to empty as you can safely get it and then fill with fresh fuel. Ethanol is a solvent and will dissolve any crapola that is in your fuel system so that could be what the sediment is on the bottom of the jar. Now, if you don't want to run the boat, run a 1/2" or 3/8" clear plastic hose through your fuel fill nozzle inlet to the bottom of the tank and siphon out the contents, the more you get out, the better.

 

[theBrownskull]

Re: Why does my gas look like this and is it OK?

Re: Why does my gas look like this and is it OK?

MN has been using ethanol in the gasoline for twenty years and I have never seen it look like that. Is your gas tank fiberglass or composite? Possibly the ethanol in the fuel is eating away at the gastank.

 

[sbbamafan]

Re: Why does my gas look like this and is it OK?

Re: Why does my gas look like this and is it OK?

FWIW the pictures you saw were from a sample of gas from the filter. The sample stood for about 3-4 hours between the time I poured it and the time I took the photos. The tank is plastic (I'm pretty sure).

SO - in summary, I will get a sample from the tank. I am about 80+% expecting that I will need to drain the tank. If not, it would be a pleasant surprise...Is there any easy way to clean the tank out without removal, etc...

 

[UncleWillie]

Re: Why does my gas look like this and is it OK?

Re: Why does my gas look like this and is it OK?

FWIW the pictures you saw were from a sample of gas from the filter. The sample stood for about 3-4 hours between the time I poured it and the time I took the photos. The tank is plastic (I'm pretty sure).

SO - in summary, I will get a sample from the tank. I am about 80+% expecting that I will need to drain the tank. If not, it would be a pleasant surprise...Is there any easy way to clean the tank out without removal, etc...

If the fuel sat for a few hours in the glass and you did NOT get a fuel/water separation line in the glass, the fuel has just barely "crossed over."

When you get your tank sample, if it is clear.... have a nice day!
If it is cloudy, take a measured amount in a glass, say, 8 ounces.
Now add some fresh E-10, an ounce at a time.
This will give you an idea as to how much fuel to add to the tank to clear it up.

Or.... Just go run it, milky fuel will burn just fine, it is only a cosmetic issue.
The amount of water that is there is small.
1/2 of one percent Max, and only if it is full strength E-10 and a very warm day.

You never stated if the engine ran fine after changing the filter. ???