Winter gloom.... Fishfinder/chart help request

[zevi]

Greetings to all!

I don't know what the Farmers' Almanac is saying -- but I know it's going to be a long, hard winter here: it's only November and I'm really missing being on the boat...

As a partial and temporary cure, I'm researching Fishfinder/GPS combo options. Maybe getting a good deal on one in the next weeks/months, and have it ready when spring comes. I searched the forum and elsewhere, got a lot of information, but couldn't quite narrow the answer yet.

Hopefully you can help me sort out a good recommendation based on the following list of considerations:

• The boat: FourWinns 190.
• Target area: mostly Michigan inland lakes, with occasional near-shore (<5 mi ?) Great Lakes excursions.
• Budget: about $500-600 (hope to maybe squeeze into this an $800+ unit on a good sale...)
• Screen: at least 5", color.
• Resolution: at least VGA quality (640x480) (I think...)
• (I think that) I'd like to have the side-imaging capability.
• Prefer to have pre-loaded maps of the area, or otherwise - not too expensive to get (free?...)
• No need for an advanced college degree to operate...
• As I understand it, unless I intend to connect to some auto steer or other control device - I don't need NMEA 0183 Input/Output capabilities?
• Power: I know we need the power, but is there a point where bragging about power simply becomes a sales gimic? Is there a number to consider as "look for at least ... Watts"?
• I see many specs for various frequencies; what should I be looking for as far as frequencies?
• Transducer: What do I want to have as far as cone angles? I think I need at least two (wide for shallow + narrow for deep?); What is the "common wisdom" about the transducer: do people usually scrap what came with the device and get some after-market transducer instead?

Am I making any wrong assumptions/statements in this list? I know it's a long list, but I hope to get your help sorting through this...

Many thanks in advance!
Zevi.

 

[NYBo]

Re: Winter gloom.... Fishfinder/chart help request

You need at least NMEA 0183 capability to connect to a VHF marine radio for full DSC capability. However, this isn't really an issue because I don't think you'd be able to find one without it.

 

[UncleWillie]

Re: Winter gloom.... Fishfinder/chart help request

Check into the Humminbird 798ci SI unit for Side Scan capabilities. (Not the 798ci HD SI)
The HD designation has nothing to do with "High Definition"
The NON-HD unit only lacks the ability of linking multiple display heads together.
If this is not an issue with you; it can save you $250+ !

When trying to find charted objects, the location is often off by many 10's of feet.
The down scan sees nothing but the side scan shows that the objects are 30-40 feet off to one side or the other.

The non-HD units are now considered Legacy models but can be found for well under $750 as opposed to over $1000 for the HD Model.
RAM Mounts make adjustable mounts specifically for many marine GPS's.




If you are not going into waters deeper than a few hundred feet, Watts are irrelevant.
The included National Map will get you to your destination and back.
The Upgrade Regional Maps include everything on the paper charts.

 

[djpeters]

Re: Winter gloom.... Fishfinder/chart help request

I hope the recomendations keep coming as the original post could have been written for me word for word.....

 

[zevi]

Re: Winter gloom.... Fishfinder/chart help request

Check into the Humminbird 798ci SI unit for Side Scan capabilities. (Not the 798ci HD SI) ...

The non-HD units are now considered Legacy models but can be found for well under $750 ...

Many thanks for this helpful post, Willie!
Definitely a model I'll be considering. Although I have not been able to find the 798ci SI near the $750 mark, I did see the current version (798ci HD SI) for about $850 here. Any other reliable & cheap purchasing outlets will be highly appreciated!

Zevi

 

[zevi]

Re: Winter gloom.... Fishfinder/chart help request

I hope the recomendations keep coming as the original post could have been written for me word for word.....

Ahoy, there (almost) neighbor!

Yes, I hope to get more feedback. Also looking at the raymarine A65/A50/A67 models, but not sure yet how they compare to the 798, for example.

Cheers,
Zevi

 

[dingbat]

Re: Winter gloom.... Fishfinder/chart help request

Resolution: at least VGA quality (640x480)

Resolution is a function of display size. You want a 0.28 dot pitch or better size display. On 5? display, anything over 320 X is over kill and can actually be counter productive since increasing the resolution decreases the size of an object on screen.

(I think that) I'd like to have the side-imaging capability.

I would recommend you go out with someone and see how useful it is under actual conditions. If there is a gimmick this is one of them, for a lot of people

Prefer to have pre-loaded maps of the area, or otherwise - not too expensive to get (free?...)

Gamin is the only company that comes preloaded with maps that I?m aware of. All maps cost about the same. It boils down to who has better maps of the areas you boat.

Power: I know we need the power, but is there a point where bragging about power simply becomes a sales gimic? Is there a number to consider as "look for at least ... Watts"?

Power isn?t a gimmick. Power and sensitivity go hand in hand. Your walking down a dark country road. Do you want a candle or a high power spot light?

I see many specs for various frequencies; what should I be looking for as far as frequencies?

The higher the frequency (shorter wave length), the smaller an object you can detect.

Traditionally units have been 200/50 kHz. One sound wave at 200 kHz is slightly longer than 1/4 of an inch, so a 200 kHz sound wave will be able detect objects 0.25? or bigger. On the other hand, a 50 kHz sound wave is 1.15? so you?ll be able to detect objects 1.15 and larger. For whatever reason Lowrance has been pushing the 80kHZ. The 80kHz sound wave will detect objects 0.72" and bigger

This goes over the theory and performacne of transducer. A good read for techincal types
http://www.airmartechnology.com/uploads/installguide/Theory_of_ Operations.pdf

Transducer: What do I want to have as far as cone angles? I think I need at least two (wide for shallow + narrow for deep?); What is the "common wisdom" about the transducer: do people usually scrap what came with the device and get some after-market transducer instead?

The transducer is the heart and soul of the deep finder. An easy way to determine the quality of the transducer supplied with the unit is to ask the salesmen or manufacturer what the ?Q? value of the transducer is. Dumb looks, blanks stares and ?it doesn?t matter? has you running to a third party supplier for a transducer.

Cone wise I run a dual frequency transducer. Mine is roughly 200 kHz (12) & 50 kHz (45) degrees. I run dual frequency / split screen a lot. With the overlapping cone angles, you can tell where the fish is in relation to the boat. A Fish in 50 cone but not 200 cone tell you the fish is on the side, not under the boat

 

[zevi]

Re: Winter gloom.... Fishfinder/chart help request

Admiral dingbat <salute>!

First, I'd like to say that I hope all is well with you, given your location! Thank you for the time you took to write this well-thought response. I am also humbled to see that being your 6000th post! I think congratulations are in order -- if we ever get face-to-face -- I buy the first round!

With that being said, I'd like to respectfully disagree on some of the points you made...

Resolution is a function of display size. You want a 0.28 dot pitch or better size display. On 5? display, anything over 320 X is over kill and can actually be counter productive since increasing the resolution decreases the size of an object on screen.

Resolution is not really a function of display size. It is a measure/indication of how small an object in the scene can be, while still be distinctly visible on the screen. With the same image and the same display size -- more pixels give you higher resolution and you can now see the fine details of the image that were not shown before.

Also, higher resolution does not mean smaller object on the screen. True, if the device maker choose to "draw" more information on the higher-resolution screen, then he can make each item smaller in order to fit more items on the same screen "real-estate". But if you put the same image on two different 5" screens -- one is 320x320 and the other 640x640 -- you have more pixels to use, and the image/text will be of the same size -- only much sharper. I looked at the QVGA screen of this Garmin and it is noticeably inferior to the Humminbird 798 and even the in-between Lowrance Elite 5.

I would recommend you go out with someone and see how useful it is under actual conditions. If there is a gimmick this is one of them, for a lot of people

I fully agree about the benefit of going out to try it. Unfortunately I don't know anyone with such a device that I can go with. I can only base my opinion on what I read and see online, as well as a few visits to Cabela's and long chats with salespeople and other customers. So far I only heard good things about the side imaging.

Gamin is the only company that comes preloaded with maps that I?m aware of. All maps cost about the same. It boils down to who has better maps of the areas you boat.

The Lowrance Elite 5 also comes with pre-oaded maps, although I'm not sure what's the difference between the Garmin maps and the Navionics Gold.

Power isn?t a gimmick. Power and sensitivity go hand in hand. Your walking down a dark country road. Do you want a candle or a high power spot light?

Makes sense. I was wondering if some, misleadingly boast high peak-to-peak values while RMS values are more commonly being used (at some point makers of HiFi and speakers used to do that...)

This goes over the theory and performacne of transducer. A good read for techincal types
http://www.airmartechnology.com/uploads/installguide/Theory_of_ Operations.pdf

Excellent reading -- thank you!

The transducer is the heart and soul of the deep finder....

Cone wise I run a dual frequency transducer. Mine is roughly 200 kHz (12) & 50 kHz (45) degrees. I run dual frequency / split screen a lot. With the overlapping cone angles, you can tell where the fish is in relation to the boat. A Fish in 50 cone but not 200 cone tell you the fish is on the side, not under the boat

Agree about the transducer, that's why I thought maybe there's a school of thoughts that says "buy fishfinder/gps model X, but get an aftermarket transducer model Y."

BTW: What do you use for fishfinding/charting?

Cheers,
Zevi

 

[UncleWillie]

Re: Winter gloom.... Fishfinder/chart help request

If you are going to be getting a Side Scan Sonar; aftermarket/alternate transducers may not be an option.
High Frequency yields High Resolution but shorter range.

The side scan frequency is 455khz so the resolution is much higher than the down scan 50/200 resolution; Almost looks like underwater photos!

The side scan range is limited to about 250 ft left and right. (500 total)
The 50 kHz down-scan can often see bottoms over 1500 ft down.

The Humminbird 798 come with internal maps of the entire US.
The Depth contours are in the 6 ft range.
The add-on regional Navionics Maps have contours in the 6 inch range in some areas.
The Base maps would be fine for finding your way around islands and inlets and relocating a saved fishing spot.

 

[dingbat]

Re: Winter gloom.... Fishfinder/chart help request

Resolution is not really a function of display size. It is a measure/indication of how small an object in the scene can be, while still be distinctly visible on the screen. With the same image and the same display size -- more pixels give you higher resolution and you can now see the fine details of the image that were not shown before.

?Native? resolution becomes a moog point on a unit with digital zoom capabilities

Also, higher resolution does not mean smaller object on the screen. True, if the device maker choose to "draw" more information on the higher-resolution screen, then he can make each item smaller in order to fit more items on the same screen "real-estate". But if you put the same image on two different 5" screens -- one is 320x320 and the other 640x640 -- you have more pixels to use, and the image/text will be of the same size -- only much sharper.

With both units at equal scale, i.e.2:1, the unit with the higher resolution will display objects smaller than the unit with lower resolution. It?s simple math. 1/640 is smaller than 1/360. This is why higher end units have separate adjustments for text size and maps scales.

I fully agree about the benefit of going out to try it. Unfortunately I don't know anyone with such a device that I can go with. I can only base my opinion on what I read and see online, as well as a few visits to Cabela's and long chats with salespeople and other customers. So far I only heard good things about the side imaging.

At issues is the speed that you have to be traveling and the water conditions. Many of the guys that went with side scan are sorely disappointed that it only works on the calmest of days. Not so go in the coastal slop we get around here. I relate it to looking thru pair binoculars in the rough. You see something but the image is so blurred it useless.

Lowrance Elite 5 also comes with pre-oaded maps, although I'm not sure what's the difference between the Garmin maps and the Navionics Gold.

The Garmin ?base maps? are the equivalent for the Navionics Gold for the most part.

Agree about the transducer, that's why I thought maybe there's a school of thoughts that says "buy fishfinder/gps model X, but get an aftermarket transducer model Y."

Never hard of anyone upgrading a Hummingbird transducer or een if it's possible. Go with a Garmin, Lowrance, Ray, etc class I could recommend a "ducer"

BTW: What do you use for fishfinding/charting?

Sounder: Furuno FCV585 with the Airmar B164 transducer
GPS: Garmin 4208

 

[dingbat]

Re: Winter gloom.... Fishfinder/chart help request

If you are going to be getting a Side Scan Sonar; aftermarket/alternate transducers may not be an option.

Side scan units use two transducers.

 

[UncleWillie]

Re: Winter gloom.... Fishfinder/chart help request

Side scan units use two transducers.

The Humminbird Side Scan Transducer is triple frequency, with two down beams plus left and right side beams and water temperature all in one transducer head.

It works great.

 

[dingbat]

Re: Winter gloom.... Fishfinder/chart help request

The Humminbird Side Scan Transducer is triple frequency, with two down beams plus left and right side beams and water temperature all in one transducer head.

It works great.

Ahhh, that explains twhy no 50 kHz option. Lowrance uses 2 seperate transducers to get away from that problem

Two down beams? How do you get 2 signals out of a single piezo? 83 kHZ operation is a filtering of the 200 kHZ output.

.

 

[WIMUSKY]

Re: Winter gloom.... Fishfinder/chart help request

Greetings to all!

I don't know what the Farmers' Almanac is saying -- but I know it's going to be a long, hard winter here: it's only November and I'm really missing being on the boat...

I'll answer your Almanac question. Yeah, I know it was rhetorical. Pick your favorite locale.

 

[pdgs]

Re: Winter gloom.... Fishfinder/chart help request

To answer your question - We don't know.. Lowrance announced a new version of the HD Gen 2, Garmin announced a new unit that one ups the Lowrance, Furuno hasn't said anything yet and might not need to. Humminbird (Johnson) hasn't said anything yet but should since the market is identical. The best advice I can give is to take up knitting and wait until after the shows in Jan/Feb/Mar to see what the final offerings for this year are. Smaller dealers might be clearing old stock and prices should see some dramatic reductions shortly after the shows.You might see some reductions at places like West Marine and Cabelas but they move so much inventory it probably wont effect prices much.

 

[dingbat]

Re: Winter gloom.... Fishfinder/chart help request

To answer your question - We don't know.. Lowrance announced a new version of the HD Gen 2, Garmin announced a new unit that one ups the Lowrance, Furuno hasn't said anything yet and might not need to. Humminbird (Johnson) hasn't said anything yet but should since the market is identical.

The Lowrance HD gen 2 still uses conventional sonar technology so nothing new there

The "one ups" that Garmin and Simrad released the beginning of the year is CHIRP. CHIRP is high end stuff. The transducer alone runs upwards of $2,000. Figure upwards of $5K by the time everything is all said and done. Raymarine and Furuno are looking at it, but I really don?t see Hummingbird or Lowrance following suit. It's not their market.

 

[zevi]

Re: Winter gloom.... Fishfinder/chart help request

... It’s simple math. 1/640 is smaller than 1/360.

Yes, the pixel size is smaller and you have more pixels on the same screen size. But now you can use twice as many pixels to draw each item on the screen. The size of the item on the screen remains the same -- only twice as sharp.

At issues is the speed that you have to be traveling and the water conditions. Many of the guys that went with side scan are sorely disappointed that it only works on the calmest of days. Not so go in the coastal slop we get around here. I relate it to looking thru pair binoculars in the rough. You see something but the image is so blurred it useless.

Since all the positive reviews and opinions I read about the side scan came from inland-lakes fishermen, I guess this technology is not at best on coastal waters. But that's OK, as I plan on using it mainly on inland lakes and the Great Lakes (when calm...)

Sounder: Furuno FCV585 with the Airmar B164 transducer
GPS: Garmin 4208

Nice setup -- too bad my budget cannot touch it...

But here's what I was talking about earlier regarding power and the terminology used to compare "apples with apples": your finder, as well as other finders such as the Garmin 546s use power that is either about 600 Watts or 100 Watts; the Humminbird 598 has 4,000 Watts. In your own words: "Power and sensitivity go hand in hand. Your walking down a dark country road. Do you want a candle or a high power spot light?" Why would you chose a 600-1000 Watts unit and not one that is 4-7 times as strong/sensitive?

Thanks,
Zevi

 

[zevi]

Re: Winter gloom.... Fishfinder/chart help request

I'll answer your Almanac question. Yeah, I know it was rhetorical. Pick your favorite locale.

... but what if my favorite locale is California - and I live in Michigan?...

Cheers,
Zevi.

 

[zevi]

Re: Winter gloom.... Fishfinder/chart help request

The Lowrance HD gen 2 still uses conventional sonar technology so nothing new there

I think what's new is not the sonar technology, but the way the data are processed and displayed. They boast the new StructureScan HD which seems to be the equivalent of Humminbird's side scan.

 

[dingbat]

Re: Winter gloom.... Fishfinder/chart help request

Yes, the pixel size is smaller and you have more pixels on the same screen size. But now you can use twice as many pixels to draw each item on the screen. The size of the item on the screen remains the same -- only twice as sharp.

My point being, the human eye can only see ?resolution? to a point. A 5? display is physically too small for the human eye to take advantage of the pixel count.

The next time you are at the store compare the 5? 640 x 640 display with that of the 8? 640 x 480 display on a Garmin. The 8? display, with the ?lower resolution? wins easily because the dot pitch on the 8? display is closer to optimal for the human eye.

But here's what I was talking about earlier regarding power and the terminology used to compare "apples with apples": your finder, as well as other finders such as the Garmin 546s use power that is either about 600 Watts or 100 Watts; the Humminbird 598 has 4,000 Watts. In your own words: "Power and sensitivity go hand in hand. Your walking down a dark country road. Do you want a candle or a high power spot light?" Why would you chose a 600-1000 Watts unit and not one that is 4-7 times as strong/sensitive?

Thanks,
Zevi

You?re not comparing apple to apples. Hummingbird uses a different measure of power to advertise their units. Why everyone else uses watts RMS, Hummingbird uses peak to peak power. To covert HB peak to peak power to RMS you divide by 8 . The Hummingbird units has 500 RMS watts output. Garmin and Furuno have 600 and 1000 watts RMS respectively.

The same goes to transducer cone angles. Everyone rates the cone angles of their transducers at 10db. HB uses 3 db which produces a cone angle typically twice the 10 db rating.