Did i destroy my 1981 Johnson 35HP Seahorse?

[Ihateclevernames]

Well, went and looked at the motor today.

it is a 1977 Evinrude. Model number 35653C

All of the parts were in the correct places based on what I can tell from looking at diagrams and talking with you guys this last week............and of course............tearing mine apart.

The reason they couldn't find the model number it that there was a piece of wood on the motor stand blocking it, and neither the owner or the shop owner knew where to find it.

A little bit more on the shop owner being somewhat clueless.

It is a prop shop that specializes in the revival or props and installation of lower unit components. The motor had been up there for a few weeks and another mechanic who was working there previously knew more about it versus the shop owner. The mechanic was since let go due to personal issues. So that makes me feel a little bit better that it wasn't a case of the shop owner being a tool.............it was that he just really didn't have a great deal of experience with engines.

So, starting out........the motor looked as it was pictured. In pretty good shape for almost a 40 year old motor. Needs a new prop (luckily it is located at a prop shop). So we started out by staring it after hooking it up and watching the owner zap himself with the ignition in his hand and not paying attention..........haha. Motor cranked up as it should when using the choke and them moved to an idle. Sounded a little high at first then it settled down.

After seeing that it started, we checked the compression with a brand new compression gauge and it registered between 115 and 120 on both cylinders (closer to 120). So that is good. The compression was checked generally cold as we did not have the tub set up yet. Would you suggest checking it again after it is warmed up? From what I have seen, it appears that 120 is pretty darn good, especially if they are close.

The mechanic previously replaced the fuel lines
Replaced wiring that was brittle due to age
Replaced the spark plugs (NGKs)
Cleaned the carburetor
Replaced the starter solenoid
Replaced the water cover gasket (It was previously leaking water at the bridge between the spark plugs)

The shop has documentation that all of this was done as well, and the things looked as the should be. Gaps were correct, Solenoid checked out, Carb was generally clean with new hardware. Lower unit oil was dark and generally looked free of any milky substance or pea soup like gear oil. Neither party knew the last time that the gear oil was changed. Same goes for the water pump. Granted the engine has not been ran very often in the last 2 years (so im told). However the water was flowing very well from the exit point on the shaft and from the pee hole as well. I was actually surprised that it worked so well for neither of them knowing the last time that it was changed.

Checked on the controls as well and everything looks like it will be plug and play with what I have on the boat from the Johnson that was on there.

After allowing it to warm up a little bit more, I noticed that a small amount of water starting to come out of the bridge point on the head cover from the water cover gasket. The water started to increase a bit, so we shut it off. After inspecting where it came from, I checked the bolts and noticed that I was able to unscrew one of the bolts by hand. Checked the rest and they were generally all loose. It appears that the guy that was previously working on it didn't torque them to specification, which may have allowed water to penetrate the interior of the water cover gasket and ruin it. So we pulled the cover off to inspect the water cover gasket and basically the gasket was pretty soggy.

This was the only issue that I was able to find and needless to say, as much as i would have loved to just get it and attempt to work on it.............I help off and told him that that issue needs to be fixed before we proceed, along with the prop.

He is going to have the guy that runs the prop shop replace the gasket and prop this week (he may not know much about outboards, but replacing the gasket and 8-10 bolts is pretty straight forward). If those things get fixed this week we are going to meet at the river (so I don't have to drive 2 hours in order to meet him) and install the motor on my boat and take it for a spin prior to payment.

The price would still be $475 for the motor with him being responsible for fixing what is currently broken.

Thoughts? To me, this doesn't sound like a huge issue pending it was just a gasket issue.

I can always walk away from it, but was actually happy with what I saw. I really found myself doing all of the things that I should have been doing on the last motor that burned up on me. Unhooking things, opening things, testing things. I actually felt pretty comfortable checking things out as it is almost identical to my 81 Johnson.

Is there any way to check anything else out further? Maybe a way to test the coils or anything else?

Thanks!

 

[oldboat1]

You're very thorough! think I would buy an outboard from you.

I believe that is a 1976 model, but may be wrong. Good catch on the water cover plate -- should insure that a new thermostat was put in there, and that there will be a new gasket. It sounds like something might have been in progress there (t.stat).

sounds much better to me than it did earlier. If it runs out well, it could be a good runner for you. think the controls you were talking about was the engine side of the wire harness -- didn't get that earlier. Think you might have a replacement motor there.

 

[Ihateclevernames]

You're very thorough! think I would buy an outboard from you.

I believe that is a 1976 model, but may be wrong. Good catch on the water cover plate -- should insure that a new thermostat was put in there, and that there will be a new gasket. It sounds like something might have been in progress there (t.stat).

sounds much better to me than it did earlier. If it runs out well, it could be a good runner for you. think the controls you were talking about was the engine side of the wire harness -- didn't get that earlier. Think you might have a replacement motor there.

Didn't count on having the thermostat replaced, as the one that was in there looked pretty good.

Should I look into having him throw one in there since the cover is off?

Anything else that could be taken care of while we are waiting? When we meet at the lake, I was planning on letting it idle in the water for a while while looking for leaks in the water cover and what not. I figure give that about 5-10 minutes and then take her our on the water. Don't want to run her with kid gloves, but would like to see how she performs as well.

This one actually has all of the pieces to the electric choke, how does that work? Was there a connection used in order to activate the choke at one time? Or was it supposed to engage as you were cranking the engine?

 

[Tim Frank]

I had a 1968 55HP that had a toggle switch beside the ignition key. Between that and my 1980 50HP, they swapped to a push-button arrangement......the ignition key in the control box was pushed and held in as you turned it. Both activated the electric choke.

 

[Ihateclevernames]

I had a 1968 55HP that had a toggle switch beside the ignition key. Between that and my 1980 50HP, they swapped to a push-button arrangement......the ignition key in the control box was pushed and held in as you turned it. Both activated the electric choke.

Not sure if that has it, but I know the guy has the original ignition switch. I'm guessing one is one there and will test it if he gets it squared away this week.

If there is nit a switch on there, I will look into potentially testing and tracing wires in order to wire my own switch up as it seems a little more stout than using the choke lever over and over again.

 

[Ihateclevernames]

Well, apparently the motor is fixed.

We are going to put it on the boat tomorrow for a test run PRIOR to the exchange.

So, that brings me to my next question..........

It appears that all of the controls from the 81 Johnson are the same as they are for the 77 Evinrude. They are all still in place on the boat. Anyone have any input on how to adjust everything after hooking it back up?

Where do I want the throttle to be at idle? In the middle? 1/4 the way from all the way back?

How tight does the clutch adjustment cable need to be? Just enough to get it to go into forward and reverse without alot of extra travel in the shifter?

I know these are vague, however i don't want to screw this up by doing something stupid...........haha

Again............

 

[oldboat1]

well, should operate the same way it did with the old rig. FNR has to engage cleanly, same travel as before or close to the same. would look for it to idle with the lever full back (idle setting should allow the engine to keep running at low idle with the throttle lever full back -- set to shut off with key switch or kill switch, not cutting throttle back.)

sounds good. Seller sounds extremely cooperative. All good. Don't think I would run the begeebers out of it when breaking in the new mounting and rigging.

exciting stuff!

edit. on auto choke. would want it to work, but repeated using the manual lever isn't going to damage the mechanism. Should be using it only briefly when starting, after all, when you have the starting procedure down.

 

[bonz_d]

Not going to go back thru 5 pages of posts but I do believe I mentioned earlier that the control you have is interchangeable between the 2 engines. You shouldn't have to change anything. Put the engine on the boat, connect the red/black cannon plug inside the engine, connect battery cables, connect throttle and shift cables and you should be on your way. All the connections are the same, you shouldn't have to adjust anything.

 

[Ihateclevernames]

Not going to go back thru 5 pages of posts but I do believe I mentioned earlier that the control you have is interchangeable between the 2 engines. You shouldn't have to change anything. Put the engine on the boat, connect the red/black cannon plug inside the engine, connect battery cables, connect throttle and shift cables and you should be on your way. All the connections are the same, you shouldn't have to adjust anything.

Yeah, I got the power part already.

Just with the adjustments on the control box in regards to the idle set screw and the positioning of the throttle on the control box in relation to how the engine is idling is what i was concerned with. I think I have the clutch figured out based on what you guys have passed on. oldboat mentioned that the throttle should be all the way back when idling.........not in the middle. So I am guessing that would mean that i would need to adjust something on the cable itself as it was not that way when I fried the last engine.

Yeah, my fault on that one. Jumping in with both feet when I didn't know how to swim. I certainly missed some key things which lead to disaster.

So I am guessing that I need so get some tension on the throttle cable and continually back it off while adjusting the tensioner adjustment point on the cable till the idle starts to back off. I am guessing that i want it to be just about to the point where it is humming and ready to die, but it won't because I will be unable to back the throttle down anymore from the control box.

Or am I thinking too much into this?

Thanks

 

[bonz_d]

Just so I'm clear and on the same page, is this a single lever control or a 2 lever control? I'm under the impression that this is a single lever that was with the 1981 engine.

 

[oldboat1]

yeah, retract the note on the lever position at idle. may have been thinking of simplex style.

edit. shift/throttle operation should be what you are used to. Warm up setting should work same way as well. Adjustment depends on what cables you have, but typically the adjustment wheel at the motor end of the cable. The wheel is a fixed point on the threaded cable -- turning it moves the end/connector fore or aft to match position of the motor control lever(s). Cables are adjusted to the motor, not the other way around. See if it works first -- likely no issue.

 

[Ihateclevernames]

So we had some issues. It didn't seem to want to idle correctly when in the water. It was jumping around alot and skipping. Definitely didn't sound right as compared to in the barrel. I am guessing that when a load is on it, it changes everything. It almost seemed like the carb was gummed up, however the carb was documented as cleaned and repaired with a rebuild kit.

Additionally, the gasket was leaking a little bit again. I was told that he replaced the gasket yesterday and let it idle for about 20 minutes without a single leak.

So needless to say, the motor ran poorly when on the boat. Never could get it above an idle, and had trouble dialing it in. When it was all said and done, I walked away from it.

The owner called me about an hour later after speaking with a different mechanic and he immediately pointed out a method for tightening the water cover called a "hot torque" and using a pattern in order to tighten everything down after allowing the engine to warm up. He also said that the other mechanic advised him to replace the gasket again and follow this method when replacing it.

As for the jumping and sputtering, the mechanic said that it sounded like one of the plugs may not be firing. He said it would be easy to miss when idling in the barrel versus in the water.

Overall, he said that he was going to have the mechanic take a look at it and let me know if he can dial it in.

Any thoughts on this?

 

[oldboat1]

running on your gas tank, as opposed to the shop tank?

 

[Ihateclevernames]

running on your gas tank, as opposed to the shop tank?

Yep. Fresh mix as of a week ago.

 

[oldboat1]

looking for a change from earlier operation in a barrel -- that on your tank too?

 

[Ihateclevernames]

No, it wasn't actually.

However when it was in the water idling, it was pretty smooth. It is just when we gave it some throttle that it started to act up.

I feel like I may have been doing something wrong with the throttle cable, however it seemed pretty straight forward.

 

[oldboat1]

So we had some issues. It didn't seem to want to idle correctly when in the water. It was jumping around alot and skipping. Definitely didn't sound right as compared to in the barrel. I am guessing that when a load is on it, it changes everything. It almost seemed like the carb was gummed up, however the carb was documented as cleaned and repaired with a rebuild kit.

Additionally, the gasket was leaking a little bit again. I was told that he replaced the gasket yesterday and let it idle for about 20 minutes without a single leak.

So needless to say, the motor ran poorly when on the boat. Never could get it above an idle, and had trouble dialing it in. When it was all said and done, I walked away from it.

The owner called me about an hour later after speaking with a different mechanic and he immediately pointed out a method for tightening the water cover called a "hot torque" and using a pattern in order to tighten everything down after allowing the engine to warm up. He also said that the other mechanic advised him to replace the gasket again and follow this method when replacing it.

As for the jumping and sputtering, the mechanic said that it sounded like one of the plugs may not be firing. He said it would be easy to miss when idling in the barrel versus in the water.

Overall, he said that he was going to have the mechanic take a look at it and let me know if he can dial it in.

Any thoughts on this?

The only thing you can "dial in" on that motor is the idle speed mix. Sputtering/jumping/skipping. This does not sound minor, and certainly not smooth.

Here's the way I see it, based on what you describe:

Currently, that motor might be worth $100 to $150 as a parts motor, only if you are sure the compression is good. If purchased as is, would proceed like any other used motor -- plan on rebuilding carb, fuel pump, ignition, water pump, t.stat, head gasket. If it turns out less is needed, so much the better. Ignition parts are pricey, but not too bad (e.g., might be $50 to $80 for a driver coil or a stator). So far, that motor has undiagnosed running issues. But you have had a pretty good amount of experience with it -- might be an advantage in buying that one over a similar parts motor.

Like cylinder heads, the t.stat housing is typically bolted up using a clockwise circular pattern, starting in the middle and working out. Like the cyl head, it can and should be resurfaced and a new gasket used, with torque according to specs. I also use a gasket sealer. Upon replacement of the t.stat, the cover is bolted up, then the motor is run to check for leaks. Then the bolts are torqued again. That's it (likewise with the head/head gasket). The resurfacing is simply working the mating surface in a figure eight pattern on 400 or 600 grit sandpaper, on a flat surface (piece of glass, cast iron top of a table saw -- something like that). It's possible the t.stat cover or the cylinder head are warped due to overheating, and that's why there is this baffling inability to fit the t.stat cover. (Actually, would be more inclined to think it's just incompetence.)

If it idles well in a barrel, it should idle well in the lake. If that isn't the case, something is wrong (or at least different -- different tank/connectors/hose/pump, different mix.....). The only way you can properly test high speed operation is on the boat, but the motor apparently doesn't make it to that point. BUT, missing or a spark issue would be obvious in a test barrel, unless uniquely a high speed miss (again, boat test), likewise fuel system issues. That stuff about an "easy to miss" misfire while idling in a barrel (as opposed to idling in the lake) is nonsense.

seems like an awful lot of people involved there, by my count (you, the seller, prop shop guy, couple of mechanics of some kind). And the motor still doesn't run....


Offer to buy it as a parts motor, if still interested in it, and providing you want to work on it (JMHO).

BTW -- There are lots of grades of "parts motors" from basket cases to complete-but-not-running, or running with some issues. I would see yours as the latter, sort of on the upper end of motors not yet ready for prime time. That's not a bad thing, if price is right and you are comfortable doing some restoration. Unless rebuilds, shops very often (probably most often) sell older motors/older trade-ins as parts motors -- meaning there are no guarantees out the door that they will run for you. It can be a good deal if you can buy it cheap and make it run.