Please help me with my school project!

[UWBusinessStudent]

It sounds interesting but I don't think it would meet my needs. I usually go out for a few days at a time so recharging the battery would be a problem. I don't stay at a marina if possible. The cost is a big consideration but the concept is intriguing. Any idea of the cost?

Cost would be less than the torqeedo 4.0 cruise. I don't know how much yet though. I don't even know the target market yet. Yeah, this motor set up is not meant for somebody who won't have daily access to an outlet.

 

[southkogs]

What is the goal of your surveying? It almost sounds as though you've got the development in the bag, and you're ready to promote a product.

BTW - 260# for motor and batteries is pretty steep for 5 hours at 6MPH. On our 14' fishing boat, the 9.9 outboard weighs about 90#, and with 6 gallons of gas (about another 40#), I can run for a few days.

 

[UWBusinessStudent]

What is the goal of your surveying? It almost sounds as though you've got the development in the bag, and you're ready to promote a product.

BTW - 260# for motor and batteries is pretty steep for 5 hours at 6MPH. On our 14' fishing boat, the 9.9 outboard weighs about 90#, and with 6 gallons of gas (about another 40#), I can run for a few days.

The survey was for trying to learn about boaters who use outboard motors in general. What type of boats use what type of motors and for what type of activities. What are the purchasing considerations for outboard motors etc. What type of boater is the most environmentally conscientious etc.

It is a requirement for the assignment that we gather primary research. We are only given three weeks for the whole project. This paper is due next week, and we got the assignment two weeks ago (but that was right at midterm time so nobody could really start it then). So, we had to get the survey out before we really even understood the market. I know, it is not efficient, but what can you do.....

The survey also doubled as an assignment for my market research class. So it was two fold.

So - now that I know more (thanks to everybody who took my survey and discussed this with me in forums) I need to narrow down a target market for this product. It is not a product on the market yet. It is in prototype stage. So yes, I know what the product is.

and to clarify - it is only 270 lbs if you want to upgrade to the 25 hp model. The 9.9 hp model which is equivalent to 13hp gas outboard would be 80lbs for the motor and 90 lbs for the battery. That would last 5 hours at 6mph.

I wasn't sure when I started this if I could share the product information, but I have since been given the go ahead. That is why at first I said it was only conceptual, but it does have a prototype. It hasn't been manufactured yet. It doesn't have a price.

This is not even going to be used by the company. We are presenting this in class. I just want to do a really good and realistic job. That is how I am. I doubt anybody else is working as hard on this as I am. I see this as training, so I want to go about it as if it is a real thing.

 

[roscoe]

So you have this miracle battery already, in hand.
Super high energy storage that weighs close to nothing and recharges quickly on regular 120v power?
Please take a few physics courses.

So lets see it.

I for one don't be leave the numbers you are sporting about.

You want to compare this unit to a 9.9, or 13 equivalent, whatever you mean by that.
Oh yeah, supposedly some miracle prop to go along with the miracle battery.

Yet 5 hours at 6mph, is not even close to the performance of a 9.9.

I can run at 15+ mph with a 9.9, and 90 lbs of fuel will last 10-12 hours ( or more).
At the 6 mph you get, a 9.9 and 90 lbs of fuel will last somewhere in the 50+ hour range.
Furthermore, I can buy a complete boat (14') motor (9.9 hp) and trailer, for under $1000.
$20-$50 worth of gas and I am good to go for an entire year.

Didn't you start out telling us about a 35-40hp equivalent?
Now its 9.9hp ?



Have you looked at the larger motors and battery pack that Torqeedo has already on the market?


They have 40 hp model, which sells for $20,000.
The battery is 345V, weighs 330#, and costs $17,000.
Total price installed, including charger, computer, 12v system, battery suspension system and installation rack, is about $45,000.

It gives 5-8 hours running time at 4 knots.
30 minutes running time at 20 knots.
Their own market research says it is targeted for users with more than $6,000 in annual fuel costs.

Furthermore, if this miracle battery existed, boating is the last place it would be utilized.
Many other applications come to mind, that would take priority over the recreational boating industry.
Applications that could justify the cost.

If this is what my tax dollars are paying for at the UW, I'm gonna stop paying.

 

[UWBusinessStudent]

So you have this miracle battery already, in hand.
Super high energy storage that weighs close to nothing and recharges quickly on regular 120v power?
Please take a few physics courses.

So lets see it.

I for one don't be leave the numbers you are sporting about.

You want to compare this unit to a 9.9, or 13 equivalent, whatever you mean by that.
Oh yeah, supposedly some miracle prop to go along with the miracle battery.

Yet 5 hours at 6mph, is not even close to the performance of a 9.9.

I can run at 15 mph with a 9.9, and 90 lbs of fuel will last 10-12 hours ( or more).
At the 6 mph you get, a 9.9 and 90 lbs of fuel will last somewhere in the 50+ hour range.
Furthermore, I can buy a complete boat (14') motor (9.9 hp) and trailer, for under $1000.
$20-$50 worth of gas and I am good to go for an entire year.

Have you looked at the larger motors and battery pack that Torqeedo has already on the market?


They have 40 hp model, which sells for $20,000.
The battery is 345V, weighs 330#, and costs $17,000.
It gives 5-8 hours running time at 4 knots.
30 minutes running time at 20 knots.
Their own market research says it is targeted for users with more than $6,000 in annual fuel costs.

Furthermore, if this miracle battery existed, boating is the last place it would be utilized.
Dozens of other applications come to mind, that would take priority over the recreational boating industry.
Applications that could justify the cost.

If this is what my tax dollars are paying for at the UW, I'm gonna stop paying.

I was just assigned this company. Please don't be mean to me I am not a physics student I am simply using the information given to me by the company. They are the ones that have the engineers.

Would you mind sharing some of the other uses that come to mind? I could use a pivot idea right about now. I don't think the boating community is the best place for this product either. It was developed with one segment in mind, crew team coaches. I am supposed to find out if there is another market in which it is applicable. My research is telling me that there isn't really a market.

I have looked at torqeedo. That is part of my required analysis. This product would not be priced anywhere near torqeedo. That is an advantage this product does have. It is also a heck of a lot lighter than torqeedos 40 hp model and the battery that it would need. The deep blue battery is 330 lbs.

Anyway, your tax dollars are not wasted. I am learning a lot. I am not supposed to be learning physics or boating. I am supposed to be learning about market research and how to conduct a market analysis.

Thank you for your time. Take care.

 

[southkogs]

I wasn't sure when I started this if I could share the product information, but I have since been given the go ahead. That is why at first I said it was only conceptual, but it does have a prototype. It hasn't been manufactured yet. It doesn't have a price.

That makes more sense now. We can't link to the product - and probably shouldn't name - it here on the forums. But that makes things a little more clear.

This is not even going to be used by the company. We are presenting this in class. I just want to do a really good and realistic job. That is how I am. I doubt anybody else is working as hard on this as I am. I see this as training, so I want to go about it as if it is a real thing.

All good - for a non-boater, you're up against a little bit of a struggle. You don't understand the community of users quite enough to define the market segments. If you'll notice, here on iBoats, there's not really even a lot of sailors - mostly power boat types. Why? The two segments approach things a little differently, and see things through different lenses. A guy who uses a 14' boat for fishing (with a 9HP on it) is using his outboard completely differently than a guy who's trolling Lake Huron in a 24' fishing boat (with a 9HP kicker motor).

The skepticism you're encountering comes (likely) from too much speculation with no production. Electric powered aircraft and electric powered boats are in a similar state of development - difficult to get over some VERY practical humps. Make sure that skepticism is part of your market research : adoption by consumers is going to have to deal with the skepticism and find a way to break through. Part of where Tesla beat that was a combination of performance - that bloomin' car MOVES - and a commitment to infrastructure. Elon Musk has done a lot to build a supportive structure to make the car practical. The market isn't adopting it as a whole yet, but I am seeing them on the road here in the greater Nashville area, so it's starting to overcome the practical skepticism. But it's in no way competing in large part with gasoline cars, and stands a reasonable chance of "fizzling out."

Personally, I don't think noise is a major issue for most boaters. Sailors aren't gonna' turn the outboard on until they have to, and the rest of us likely most concerned about getting the most output from our drivelines with the least consumption of fuel. Time and distance ... The lake I'm on takes me about 30 minutes to go end to end at (about) 32MPH. That means a single charge in the motor you're talking about gets me there ... and almost home. If I can't make that kinda' headway, quiet is nice ... but not practical.

ALSO - remember the bulk of boaters (at least on this forum) are recreational boaters. Many of us are trying to enjoy the outdoors with our families ... BUT, it's all disposable income. We're going to try to do this as inexpensively as possible, and a large portion of us are running "well used" gear. Personally, the most expensive boat I've ever purchased was $500, and the most expensive I've ever owned was worth less than $10k when I purchased it. Others burn more money than that on their boats, but many are running boats that are capable of far more than a 13HP or 9HP motor would deliver.

Off the top of my head - the only market I could see quick adoption of such a thing would be if you had an outboard that weighed less than 30LBS, self contained battery and could deliver 3HP for a consistent 3 hours. You might get a fast adoption from guys camping with canoes ... they could motor up river and drift back down.

Though - now that I think of it - I believe there were some electric launches back in the early part of the century. Boats that would take people on shore from excursion ships; they didn't go fast but they had quite a few folks on board. Not sure if a 13HP would do the trick or not.

Outside of that, in my opinion, electric motors have some substantial hurdles to climb. Most electric only lakes aren't big enough to need more than a trolling type motor, most pontoons mask the noise of the outboard well enough as they already are ... plus sometimes mid-cruise, ya' wanna' get back home fast.

To be substantially competitive in the marketplace, an electric system is gonna' have to provide enough "oomph" to run a 20' boat with 8 people on board for a day of water skiing and tubing without a charge. It'll need to sit on the charger overnight, and then hit the water the next day to do it all over again.

It's a tough project to find the market ... You're gonna' earn this grade

 

[UWBusinessStudent]

That makes more sense now. We can't link to the product - and probably shouldn't name - it here on the forums. But that makes things a little more clear.


All good - for a non-boater, you're up against a little bit of a struggle. You don't understand the community of users quite enough to define the market segments. If you'll notice, here on iBoats, there's not really even a lot of sailors - mostly power boat types. Why? The two segments approach things a little differently, and see things through different lenses. A guy who uses a 14' boat for fishing (with a 9HP on it) is using his outboard completely differently than a guy who's trolling Lake Huron in a 24' fishing boat (with a 9HP kicker motor).

The skepticism you're encountering comes (likely) from too much speculation with no production. Electric powered aircraft and electric powered boats are in a similar state of development - difficult to get over some VERY practical humps. Make sure that skepticism is part of your market research : adoption by consumers is going to have to deal with the skepticism and find a way to break through. Part of where Tesla beat that was a combination of performance - that bloomin' car MOVES - and a commitment to infrastructure. Elon Musk has done a lot to build a supportive structure to make the car practical. The market isn't adopting it as a whole yet, but I am seeing them on the road here in the greater Nashville area, so it's starting to overcome the practical skepticism. But it's in no way competing in large part with gasoline cars, and stands a reasonable chance of "fizzling out."

Personally, I don't think noise is a major issue for most boaters. Sailors aren't gonna' turn the outboard on until they have to, and the rest of us likely most concerned about getting the most output from our drivelines with the least consumption of fuel. Time and distance ... The lake I'm on takes me about 30 minutes to go end to end at (about) 32MPH. That means a single charge in the motor you're talking about gets me there ... and almost home. If I can't make that kinda' headway, quiet is nice ... but not practical.

ALSO - remember the bulk of boaters (at least on this forum) are recreational boaters. Many of us are trying to enjoy the outdoors with our families ... BUT, it's all disposable income. We're going to try to do this as inexpensively as possible, and a large portion of us are running "well used" gear. Personally, the most expensive boat I've ever purchased was $500, and the most expensive I've ever owned was worth less than $10k when I purchased it. Others burn more money than that on their boats, but many are running boats that are capable of far more than a 13HP or 9HP motor would deliver.

Off the top of my head - the only market I could see quick adoption of such a thing would be if you had an outboard that weighed less than 30LBS, self contained battery and could deliver 3HP for a consistent 3 hours. You might get a fast adoption from guys camping with canoes ... they could motor up river and drift back down.

Though - now that I think of it - I believe there were some electric launches back in the early part of the century. Boats that would take people on shore from excursion ships; they didn't go fast but they had quite a few folks on board. Not sure if a 13HP would do the trick or not.

Outside of that, in my opinion, electric motors have some substantial hurdles to climb. Most electric only lakes aren't big enough to need more than a trolling type motor, most pontoons mask the noise of the outboard well enough as they already are ... plus sometimes mid-cruise, ya' wanna' get back home fast.

To be substantially competitive in the marketplace, an electric system is gonna' have to provide enough "oomph" to run a 20' boat with 8 people on board for a day of water skiing and tubing without a charge. It'll need to sit on the charger overnight, and then hit the water the next day to do it all over again.

It's a tough project to find the market ... You're gonna' earn this grade

Do you mind if I quote some of this in my paper? And if you don't, would you mind telling me how long you have been boating/credentials (I am sure moderator for iboats would be good) for credibility? It is ok if not too. Your credibility as a consumer is enough. I just thought it could make your opinion more compelling.

 

[scipper77]

Well since this discussion has become kind of one sided in opposition of electric motors I thought I would throw in a little argument the other way. Clearly there is a place for the use of electric motors on boats in the form of trolling motors. I get a day of heavy use out of my trolling motor with a single deep cycle battery. Probably 3-5 hours of run time in an 8 hour day on the water. When I am docking my fishing boat I would never even consider using the outboard.

Where things fall apart is when we try and replace gas motors with electric. I honestly think that a hybrid system would be worth exploring as electric propulsion is (in my opinion) much nicer at "no wake" speeds. Having said that I would never buy a hybrid setup for my boat as the combination of a trolling motor and gas outboard are superior for my needs.

A final question. Don't some large crafts use electric bow thrusters?

 

[scipper77]

Just as a follow up to my post above. Are you looking for a specific answer to a specific scenario for your class or are you just trying to get statistical information that can be used to create a product to suit?

Another way to say this is do you have a specific product first and you are trying to decide who to best pitch it to?
Or: Are you trying to determine the feasibility of a product to determine if it's a project worth developing?

I think you will find that the members of this forum are extremely helpful as long as they understand exactly what you are trying to accomplish. Anything vague and open for interpretation on an internet forum however tends to go in the opposite direction.

 

[UWBusinessStudent]

Just as a follow up to my post above. Are you looking for a specific answer to a specific scenario for your class or are you just trying to get statistical information that can be used to create a product to suit?

Another way to say this is do you have a specific product first and you are trying to decide who to best pitch it to?
Or: Are you trying to determine the feasibility of a product to determine if it's a project worth developing?

I think you will find that the members of this forum are extremely helpful as long as they understand exactly what you are trying to accomplish. Anything vague and open for interpretation on an internet forum however tends to go in the opposite direction.

This is a real product that is in the prototype phase. It was developed with a specific market in mind - crew team coaches. Our assignment is to discover the secondary market, which is proving quite difficult. We are doing this completely backward. Typically, you would conduct a market opportunity analysis BEFORE you develop a product. However, this product has already been developed and now I have to find a market.

If I can't find a market I want to see if the company can pivot (use the same technology/products for a different purpose). Somebody above was saying that there are probably better applications for a battery like this one? Idk.

I want to make it clear that I am in no way affiliated with this product. This company was assigned to me. One half of the class got one company and one half got another. We are working in groups. We are supposed to analyze the competition, define the market, define the target market, position the product, price the product, and develop a marketing plan.

We then have to write a twelve page paper on all of it and present our findings to the class.

We have been given three weeks.

 

[southkogs]

Sent you a PM UWBusinessStudent.

I wonder if there might be a fleet application of sorts - perhaps a natural resources agency or something of that nature who is trying to move through natural areas without disturbing them too much, but they're only out in small craft for a couple hours at a time.

TWRA here in Tennessee has a fleet, and has some bigger boats (we've got pretty big impounds). But perhaps they may benefit from the fuel savings if the application fit some of their river operations. Maybe that's a direction to think about. CNG isn't quite practical for consumers, but there are cab and bus companies that are running that way for the savings and "clean" burn.

 

[Chinewalker]

I think it would need to be within spitting distance of the cost of a gas outboard, understanding that you'd pay a bit of a premium up front for cost savings down the road. Your clientele would likely be commercial groups (cruise and tour types) and perhaps some inshore fishing vessels where they could carry multiple batteries to increase range, and perhaps multiple motors to increase load carrying. Your projected weight isn't too far off a gas outboard, particularly when you consider the weight of carrying a couple 6-gallon cans of fuel (approx. 40-45 lb. each when full). Interesting concept, regardless... Brushed or brushless motors?

 

[steelespike]

What many folks forget about batteries is they do have a specific useful life.
I had a Gem car that had 6 deep cycle 12 V. batteries I think group 31.
Back then they were about $100 each and I bet now about $200.
With careful maintenance these batteries would last about 3 years.
So about $400 a year for batteries and these were simple lead acid batteries.
In ideal conditioons range was about 35 miles. I was in a hilly area so I was really happy if I
made 20 or 25 miles. Top speed was about 40.
Those batteries probably last longer bout I wonder the cost.
I think the electric boat has a green signature with its pollution easier to recycle and keep tabs on.
Sound pollution is probably really low.

 

[Chris1956]

The specs on that electric outboard do not sound possible. For example, how is the prop 30% more efficient, and where can I get one for my gas OB?

I also do not currently know of a large battery(s) than can be recharged from 70% dead to full in 3.5 hours, w/o damage. Lastly pushing a 25 footer at 6 MPH, which I assume is less than full displacement speed, for 5 hours will take some watts. I am not sure I could do the math to see if the power required is possible for a battery of that weight, but it seems unlikely batteries have enough power density to meet that spec.

Is this just a theoretical question or is it based upon any current technology?

FWIW, it may have a practical use, especially on HP-restricted lakes, provided the cost is not prohibitive.

Just so you know, the reason the Wright Bros. had the first flight success, was because their propeller was more efficient than the other contestants. Hopefully we understand all we need to know about props, by now.

 

[southkogs]

I merged the two topics going into this one topic ... in case yer' wondering where the extra posts came from.

 

[UWBusinessStudent]

The specs on that electric outboard do not sound possible. For example, how is the prop 30% more efficient, and where can I get one for my gas OB?

I also do not currently know of a large battery(s) than can be recharged from 70% dead to full in 3.5 hours, w/o damage. Lastly pushing a 25 footer at 6 MPH, which I assume is less than full displacement speed, for 5 hours will take some watts. I am not sure I could do the math to see if the power required is possible for a battery of that weight, but it seems unlikely batteries have enough power density to meet that spec.

Is this just a theoretical question or is it based upon any current technology?

FWIW, it may have a practical use, especially on HP-restricted lakes, provided the cost is not prohibitive.

Just so you know, the reason the Wright Bros. had the first flight success, was because their propeller was more efficient than the other contestants. Hopefully we understand all we need to know about props, by now.

This is a real product that is in the prototype phase. It was developed with a specific market in mind - crew team coaches. Our assignment is to discover the secondary market, which is proving quite difficult. We are doing this completely backward. Typically, you would conduct a market opportunity analysis BEFORE you develop a product. However, this product has already been developed and now I have to find a market.

If I can't find a market I want to see if the company can pivot (use the same technology/products for a different purpose). Somebody above was saying that there are probably better applications for a battery like this one? Idk.

I want to make it clear that I am in no way affiliated with this product. This company was assigned to me. One half of the class got one company and one half got another. We are working in groups. We are supposed to analyze the competition, define the market, define the target market, position the product, price the product, and develop a marketing plan.

We then have to write a twelve page paper on all of it and present our findings to the class.

We have been given three weeks.

 

[jbcurt00]

Google ballistic batteries

I met a guy that runs one on his vintage boat to save both space and weight. About $300 for the battery but its smaller then 6X6X6 and weighs a lot less then typical marine batteries, IIRC, less then a 3rd. It's a much smaller package to mount so he was able to hide it easily.

And it doesnt require a $300 charger. It wouldnt run a 35hp electric outboard though

HTH, or at least helps frame your pivot and not feasible arguements

 

[roscoe]

It was developed with a specific market in mind - crew team coaches.

What's that in ingrish?

The coach's boat for a rowing team ?

 

[Silvertip]

It's a lithium starting battery for motorcycles etc. Not suitable for op's purposes due to capacity.

 

[jbcurt00]

It's a lithium starting battery for motorcycles etc. Not suitable for op's purposes due to capacity.

Yep, thats why I said not for running a 35hp elecrtic only outboard.

Meant for more info about batteries and possible alternative uses, the pivot the OP talked about in ber last post