Please help me with my school project!

[littlerayray]

haha! I know. It sounds silly. I risk sounding like an idiot while I am working on this. Mostly we were thinking that perhaps fishermen would care about the noise their motor makes under the water because of scaring the fish away.

Fish aren't scared of noisy motors while diving the fish didn't even respond as boats were going overhead they also aren't afraid of divers as well I've pet small and largemouth bass as well as walleye like they were dogs they seem to be interested in the bubbles we produce what they do sitter away from are the sinkers as they hit bottom but after that they aren't fish are wierd

 

[DeepCMark58A]

Those are all very valid points. Are those what come to your mind when you think about electric vs. gas motors? Do you think the environmental impact isn't much better? What if the batteries could be charged via solar power? What if the batter could last for 10 years? What would overcome your objections?

I have worked in the environmental industry since 1987 from contaminated groundwater to landfills, I am also on the BOD of a non profit professional association associated with the solid waste industry. I see it quiet often in the electric vehicle industry, people come out with an electric product and claim how healthy it is for the environment claiming electricity is so much cleaner than hydrocarbons or coal. They do not consider how the power is generated that they use to charge the batteries. You could have an electric boat motor that performs, yet still using coal to generate the electricity that charges the motor. It is like feeling sorry for a dog because he only has 4 legs so you decide to call his tail a leg too so he feels better when in fact the dog is really no better off because in fact he still has 4 legs and a tail.

 

[southkogs]

This has been super helpful. So, thank you.

Glad it worked out. Full time student with three munchkins at home? You've got a red cape and a big "S" on your outfit, dont'cha?

How would you define conservationist vs. environmentalist?

I want to be a wise steward of the things I use - including nature. But I don't believe that nature is being systematically destroyed by taking mechanical things into it. We need to be careful about political discussions here, but ultimately I can comfortably take a combustion engine out on the lake in good faith that I'm not doing damage to the world around me. An electric motor offers little, if any, additional "good faith" that I'm lessening any damage done to the world I live in (IMHO). So, I can be a good steward of the waters I'm on - considering pollution, wildlife, etc. - without using an electric motor.

Perhaps one exception I can think of - noise. To your point, if I can move through the water more quietly then I can preserve the natural sounds around me.

What are the objections that need to be overcome specifically? What is an acceptable battery weight? What is an acceptable battery life and charge time?

Depends on the boat. My boat is a 19.5' boat with a 135HP drive capable of carrying 8 people at about 35 miles per hour. Total weight of the boat is about 2,400# (if I remember right) not including people. The drive itself is probably in the 500-700# range. If the batteries and drive are heavier by 200#, it's possible that in some situations my boat won't even be able to get up on plane.

In a small fishing boat with a 10HP motor on it. 50# could have the same effect.

However, a pontoon boat with 80HP electric may work out just fine if the battery weight is distributed well.

Hull style and design means as much to a boats performance as power. In a displacement hull, battery power may work out better than on a planing hull.

I am really sorry, I don't know what KTS is. What if the electric motor could run on a single battery at 35-40hp and up to 80 with a double battery set up, and was still practically silent at full speed? Quiet enough that you could carry on a conversation at a reasonable volume level without the motor noise getting in the way?

KTS = knots per hour. Nautical Miles Per hour. Equals about 1.15MPH.

One of my old boats used a 75HP motor, and could carry 6 people at 25MPH. An additional 200# of battery would keep that boat from going on plane, and meant that it wouldn't really achieve 12MPH. If however the weight could be overcome, and you could achieve 80HP on that same boat ...

... with a combustion engine, the motor would be noisy enough that I would have to raise my voice over the noise. If you could eliminate that, and I could be on plane at 25MPH and just speak conversationally, that would be cool.

HOWEVER ... one more consideration ... sailboats have already solved the problem of engine noise, right? But even on a sail boat, sometimes the noise of the hull going through the water, the wind passing by, etc. is still relatively noisy. So, it's possible the noise reduction won't be as much (overall) as you think.

Is there any factor that could get you over the price objection? for example, you are comparing a small four door electric car to your 3/4 ton pick up truck. What if you could have an electric 3/4 ton pick up? (ie. the electric motor would perform just as well as the gas motor at the same hp level)

See Silvertips post regarding battery power. The problem (currently) is battery storage. Technology hasn't quite gotten us a practical way to make a 3/4 electric pickup truck. We've only achieved sedans.

An electric truck (in theory) would give me all kinds pulling torque, which is what one generally wants a truck for. But to date, even with electric technology on the rise, combustion still wins.

The Tesla is a really interesting look at electric vehicles. Environmental concerns aside, that sedan is a practical and high performance vehicle. It seems to be a very good car. BUT, it's really been hard for them to overcome charging issues and price to gain a big market share. The technology isn't quite being adopted because of some practical limitations.

Of course, you're also up against the fact that I'm a cheapskate

Let's say the electric outboard would weigh 70 lbs. How much would the battery have to weigh for the set up to be attractive for you?

For an 80HP motor - I guess 30-50lbs to be attractive, no more than 100lbs to be a consideration in the boats that I would put an 80HP on.

But that battery would have to have a life of 10 hours. Charge time would have to be 8 hours at a max. Many boaters spend the day at the lake. Head out in the morning, play for the morning - have lunch somewhere, buy gas at the fuel dock and go back out until dinner time. That's a long time for a battery to be cranking out 3000 RPM.

 

[scipper77]

Yes - I realize that under 100hp is pretty broad (although I didn't when I posted the poll. I have learned a tremendous amount from my survey haha). The motor that we are conceptualizing is aimed to be equivalent to a 35-40 hp gas motor. We thought that if somebody wanted an electric up to 80 hp they could use two batteries.

What kind of weight are you looking for in a 5.5 hp or 9.5 hp motor for your pond hopper? (what is a pond hopper, and what do you use it for?) And, are you saying that weight doesn't matter on your 16.5' Sea Nymph? At that point all you really care about is noise and hp? How important is noise at that point? If the electric motor was virtually silent, would that interest you? And lastly, you say that gas mileage is determined by the boat...is that based on boat length, weight? I am so sorry I am so ignorant.

My "Pond Hopper" is a 12' aluminum boat. I call it that because it's suitable for small bodies of water and can be put in the water without a launch if need be. I fish some large ponds with it that my larger boat wouldn't be able to access. It's just a descriptive nickname.

As far as gas mileage, true there might be small differences in the efficiency of one motor compared to another but boats encounter so much drag that you are really making the decision on gas mileage when you select the hull. Consider the fact that boats don't have or need breaks, its kind of like driving your car with the breaks on all the time. It is of note that a 2 stroke motor is notably less efficient than a 4 stroke. If you are buying a new outboard however I am not even sure that 2 strokes are available any more.

One thing that you might be able to really sell around here would be a hybrid system that works in a similar fashion to a hybrid car. Electric propulsion when at low speed and gas power at high speed. At low speed a plaining hull design is much less efficient than when it is on plain. Just my two cents.

 

[64osby]

Electric outboards do exist. I know one guy that uses it an electric only lake. It is much more then a trolling motor.

http://www.torqeedo.com/en

 

[UWBusinessStudent]

What about electric only lakes? Does anybody know anything about those?

 

[jbcurt00]

There are several local lakes that are electric only, and IMO the assumption is that means trolling motors only so below the equivelant gas motor of about 10 or 15hp tops. Which also is the max for some low hp only lakes, although those are typically gas.

 

[UWBusinessStudent]

What about these motors?
http://golehr.com/lehr-25-hp-4-stroke-outboard-engine/ http://www.evinrude.com/en-us/engines/etec_20/etec_300_hp_g2 http://www.elcomotoryachts.com/small-outboard-motors.shtml#
Are any of these appealing? If so, why? If not, why not?

 

[UWBusinessStudent]

There are several local lakes that are electric only, and IMO the assumption is that means trolling motors only so below the equivelant gas motor of about 10 or 15hp tops. Which also is the max for some low hp only lakes, although those are typically gas.

Do you know anybody that goes to these lakes? Are they popular?

 

[jbcurt00]

What about these motors?

http://golehr.com/lehr-25-hp-4-stroke-outboard-engine/ http://www.evinrude.com/en-us/engines/etec_20/etec_300_hp_g2
http://www.elcomotoryachts.com/small-outboard-motors.shtml#
Are any of these appealing? If so, why? If not, why not?

Load those motors info google and get a fresh beverage, i found several good resource pages for them. Add review to the end of each model outboard in your searches too.

An iboats competitor has 9.9 propane lehr outboards made from 1/12 thru 12/13 listed as HALF OFF for about $1700, not a popular motor or fuel system based on that. If it's a 3-4yr old outboard basically on clearance, what's the dealer warranty service and parts availability going to be?

The 9.9 Elco retails for $4800+/-, about the same as a new 25hp 4stroke or 30hp ETEC 2stroke. That would be a hard sell, IMO

Never heard of the propane motors until you posted them. The $4800 motor doesn't come w/ the 4 batteries to run it either so that's another big ticket item.

Do you know anybody that goes to these lakes? Are they popular?

1 is a private, members only lake, so I suppose it's popular. I've only been to 1 electric only lake, twice, neither time w/ a boat, and there was only 1 other person there, once...... Popular? Maybe, but not based on the 2 times I was there.

In WV, I suspect that there aren't as many restricted HP or electric only lakes as some states, esp out west where water is a scarce resource. Add Lake Tahoe outboard ban to your google search list. If I remember correctly, 2 strokes may have recently been banned or a petition/bill/ballot vote was introduced. In fact, that may have been a measure state-wide in California.

I'd like to see more about what YOU'VE found in researching this subject.

I'd suggest you also try to decrease the formatting of the text w font sizing, colors and highlights, and try to format the posts w some hard returns and paragraphs. It's very hard to read thru and reply w a quote when it's all jumbled up w formatting characters and no hard returns to separate thoughts and questions. Are you posting from a mobile device. Sometimes the forum software condenses mobile posts into run on sentances...

 

[jbcurt00]

For grins, I went back to the Elco site to price out the 9.9 delivered, ready to run (all necessary setup and installation parts and pieces)
4 batteries w/ multi-node Monitor
48V charger
wiring harness
remote control
outboard

Delivered: $7400

For a 9.9 equivalent motor

ouch

 

[Silvertip]

I think you are not comprehending the "engineering aspects" of what you are trying to conceptualize. Below is a link to just one electric motor that produces 4.3 HP at about 3000 rpm.

http://www.everythingcarts.com/p-46...lub-car.aspx?gclid=CK3goomzkMkCFZOBaQodTyoDcA

Note that this motor costs $500+ (weight is not given) and it produces its power from 48 volts which requires four VERY LARGE deep cycle batteries. It does not include a speed control system so these are very real cost considerations. Now back to the 4.3 HP. Note that this motor is for a golf cart but that doesn't matter, 12 MPH in a golf cart does not transfer to a boat. An example of this is a car has a multi gear transmission to get the vehicle moving and then by shifting gears you reach cruising speed. Boats don't have multi gear transmissions. An 80 HP gas outboard would push a 16 - 17 foot runabout boat at about 40 MPH. So again, use the math previously indicated as whether your concept is even remotely possible given the parameters you presented. 80HP is not possible on one, two, three or even four batteries, much less for a duty cycle of 3 or 4 hours. 80 HP would be possible using a Tesla style battery pack but those high tech batteries would cost many thousands of dollars. With today's motor/battery technology an 80 HP marine drive system would be out of reach of 90% of the boat buying public. Although I applaud you for tackling this concept, I suggest you either change the scope or change your project because it really does not fit the criteria of your survey. As a last thought, a few of the 75 HP electric motors I looked at weighed between 800 and 900 pounds. Granted, these are AC motors that draw 170+ amps AC and would really expensive. Again, it is a battery(ies), control system, motor, and drive system that puts this system out of reach for the vast majority of recreational boaters.

 

[UWBusinessStudent]

80 HP would be possible using a Tesla style battery pack but those high tech batteries would cost many thousands of dollars.

Just humor me and pretend it is Tesla style battery engineering.

The motor wouldn't be 80hp. It would be 9.9-26.8hp (20kW) which would be equivalent to a 35-40 hp gas motor.

So, if you were to imagine that the battery is a new technology that nobody has seen before. It is strong enough to power this motor, and the battery doesn't weigh an outrageous amount, and it isn't too expensive.



Would you be interested?

 

[UWBusinessStudent]

Load those motors info google and get a fresh beverage, i found several good resource pages for them. Add review to the end of each model outboard in your searches too.

An iboats competitor has 9.9 propane lehr outboards made from 1/12 thru 12/13 listed as HALF OFF for about $1700, not a popular motor or fuel system based on that. If it's a 3-4yr old outboard basically on clearance, what's the dealer warranty service and parts availability going to be?

The 9.9 Elco retails for $4800+/-, about the same as a new 25hp 4stroke or 30hp ETEC 2stroke. That would be a hard sell, IMO

Never heard of the propane motors until you posted them. The $4800 motor doesn't come w/ the 4 batteries to run it either so that's another big ticket item.


1 is a private, members only lake, so I suppose it's popular. I've only been to 1 electric only lake, twice, neither time w/ a boat, and there was only 1 other person there, once...... Popular? Maybe, but not based on the 2 times I was there.

In WV, I suspect that there aren't as many restricted HP or electric only lakes as some states, esp out west where water is a scarce resource. Add Lake Tahoe outboard ban to your google search list. If I remember correctly, 2 strokes may have recently been banned or a petition/bill/ballot vote was introduced. In fact, that may have been a measure state-wide in California.

I'd like to see more about what YOU'VE found in researching this subject.

I'd suggest you also try to decrease the formatting of the text w font sizing, colors and highlights, and try to format the posts w some hard returns and paragraphs. It's very hard to read thru and reply w a quote when it's all jumbled up w formatting characters and no hard returns to separate thoughts and questions. Are you posting from a mobile device. Sometimes the forum software condenses mobile posts into run on sentances...

What I have found in my research is a lot of conflicting opinions, and a lot of skepticism.

Some people would be really interested in a motor like this, but refuse to believe it would EVER be possible. It is really hard to get people to imagine that it is, and respond accordingly.

Here are some of the results from the survey. We had 145 responses, which is amazing for a student survey, so thank you to everybody who participated!
Boat Owners with Sailboats: If all specifications were the same and price was of no concern, which would you choose?
Electric Outboard Gas Outboard Grand Total

66.67% 33.33% 100.00%
Percent of Total Types of Boats 16.95%

Boat Owners with Fishing Boats: If all specifications were the same and price was of no concern, which would you choose?
Electric Outboard Gas Outboard Grand Total

53.70% 46.30% 100.00%
Percent of Total Types of Boats 46%

Boat Owners with Pontoons: If all specifications were the same and price was of no concern, which would you choose?
Electric Outboard Gas Outboard Grand Total

53.85% 46.15% 100.00%
Percent of Total Types of Boats 11%


All Types of Boats Owned with Outboard Motors: If all specifications were the same and price was of no concern, which would you choose?
Electric Outboard Gas Outboard Grand Total

56.30% 43.70% 100.00%

Hp < 20 Importance of Environmental Friendliness

Total Slightly Important to Extremely Important 57%
Percent of Total Surveyed 53%

20 < hp < 100 Importance of Environmental Friendliness

Total Slightly Important to Extremely Important 47%
Percent of Total Surveyed 41%

hp 0-100 Importance of Environmental Friendliness

Total Slightly Important to Extremely Important 52%
Percent of Total Surveyed 99%

1% owned several motors of mixed hp
If all specifications and performance were the same and price was of no concern, which type of motor would you purchase?
Electric Outboard Gas Outboard Grand Total
56.67% 43.33% 100.00%

If you chose electric outboard in the previous question, which would you choose if the electric outboard was more expensive?
Electric Outboard Gas Outboard Grand Total
73.53% 26.47% 100.00%

If you chose the electric motor in the previous question up to how much more than the gas motor would you be willing to pay?
10% 20% 30% 40% 50% more than 50% Grand Total
30.61% 40.82% 14.29% 2.04% 10.20% 2.04% 100.00%


If price and performance were the same, but the electric outboard was virtually silent, had zero emissions, and weighed half as much as the gas outboard, which would you purchase?
Electric Outboard Gas Outboard Grand Total
72.27% 27.73% 100.00%

So those are some of the results. We are thinking that the target market for something like this would either be the sailing community with sailboats between 15 and 26 feet, or people with pontoons. I am now looking into people who frequent electric only lakes, but I am getting conflicting information there too.

 

[UWBusinessStudent]

For grins, I went back to the Elco site to price out the 9.9 delivered, ready to run (all necessary setup and installation parts and pieces)
4 batteries w/ multi-node Monitor
48V charger
wiring harness
remote control
outboard

Delivered: $7400

For a 9.9 equivalent motor

ouch

Yikes! How much would be reasonable for that set up in your opinion?

 

[UWBusinessStudent]

No Title

Objections to Electric Outboard Motors from survey

 

[UWBusinessStudent]

I must say that the definition "under 100 HP" is very broad. For my 12' pond hopper where I run a 5.5 HP or a 9.5 HP motor weight is more of a factor (I keep the motors in my shed).

My Sea Nymph is 16.5' long and runs around 30-50 HP. for that rig HP and noise are all important factors. Gas mileage is largely determined by the boat, not the motor now that 2 strokes are pretty much a thing of the past.

For your either of those boats....let's say the electric motor weighs 80 lbs and is 9.9 hp and equivalent to a 13 hp gas outboard. The battery weighs 90 lbs. You can upgrade the hp simply by paying for an upgrade key and it can be upgraded to 15, 20 and 25 hp, but for higher hp you would need another battery pack. The battery can propel a 25' low wake hull for 5+ hours at 6 mph. The motor is virtually silent. The only noise you would hear would be the wind and water.

Is that interesting?

 

[UWBusinessStudent]

Would anybody be interested in an electric outboard with these specs?

An electric outboard with either 9.9, 15, 20, or 25 hp. The propellor would be 30% more efficient than traditional outboards so 9.9hp would = a 13hp gas and a 25 hp would = a 35 hp gas. It would weigh 80 lbs. The battery to run the 9.9 hp model would weigh 90 lbs. In order to upgrade to 25hp, you would need an additional battery pack. So 25 hp = 35 hp gas the total weight set up would be 80 lb motor + 2 90 lb battery packs = 260 lbs total. Upgrading hp is as simple as purchasing a key and downloading it. The motor would be virtually silent. You would only hear the sounds of nature and your company. It could run a 25' low wake hull for constant 5+ hours at 6 mph. It would take 3.5 hours to recharge the battery from a 70% discharge.

 

[StarTed]

It sounds interesting but I don't think it would meet my needs. I usually go out for a few days at a time so recharging the battery would be a problem. I don't stay at a marina if possible. The cost is a big consideration but the concept is intriguing. Any idea of the cost?

 

[Silvertip]

It seems much of what has been said about the issues with electric power are being ignored but in effect are drivers of why electric outboard/inboard power is impractical with the technology we have at this point in time. I will summarize the issues first and then get into some real world numbers regarding electric outboards (the numbers are from the supplier).

1) There are many types of boats that range from very small wood, glass or aluminum. Let's classify these as non-planning hulls and therefore candidates for electric power since they can and are being used with electric trolling motors. These boats are generally limited to very small bodies of water so range is not generally an issue. For less than $700 you can buy any number of electric motors, the battery, and a charger for this category of boat so competition will be tight in this price point and performance would be equal.

2) Recreational boats tend to fall in the 14 foot and up range. Designs vary widely but most have planning hulls. You will typically see the bottom end of this range powered with 20 - 40 HP motors and power goes up to 300 and higher at the upper end of this range. Here is the rub: A planning hull requires gobs of power to get the boat on plane and once that is achieved, power can be reduced to somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3 to maintain a comfortable cruise. With current technology, electric power is really impractical for this range of boats but primarily because of battery technology. Motors will follow but they require power and lots of it so the battery and it's size will be the driving force. There are a few manufacturers trying electric power in this style of boat but obviously they are not flying out of the showrooms due primarily to cost, range, and charging time.

So one electric outboard manufacturer (who shall remain nameless) offers a model that is claimed to be the equivalent of an 8 HP outboard. Here are the numbers to chew on and you can quickly determine with todays technology, why range, cost, weight, space and performance are issues and will continue to be for the foreseeable future.

Power input is 4000 watts at 48 volts. That my friends is 4 expensive AGM 200 AH (minimum) batteries or in the vicinity of $1,400.
A battery charger is available from the supplier for another $599.00
You can buy their dual battery pack (two 12 volt batteries in a single pack = 24 volts) for $2599.00. You need two of them for maximum range so $5200.00 for their "custom" batteries.
Maximum speed is 7 knots (8 mph) providing an advertised run time of one hour and 10 minutes. An 8 hp engine with six gallons of gas would provide an entire week of boating pleasure with none of the electrical issues. Can you say is there a rational comparison here.
Cost for this drive unit is $4298.00 and does not include any of the things listed above.
The immediate conclusion is the total package is too costly, not enough range and requires too much room for the battery pack. The only practical application for this system is an electric only lake -- and a small one at that. Since this electric boat has such a huge battery bank, folks with killer stereo systems with gazillion watt amplifiers will connect those to the battery bank along with lights and other toys. That stuff takes power as well so the range is further limited.

Now lets extrapolate the cost of getting from an 8 HP equivalent to 24 HP (factor of three). Power input rises to 12,000 watts. This just reduced the run time by a factor of three unless the battery bank is increased by the same factor. If one considers that three times the power does not translate to three times the speed, the cost/performance issue becomes even worse. A 32 HP equivalent requires 16,000 watts of input power thus requiring an even larger battery bank (double the size of the 8 HP version. Using their "special battery" you would have over $10,000 in batteries alone. Practical?????? I think not.

Now for the real reason electric power with what we have today is impractical. a) camp sites do not always have electrical service and almost never at the point where you dock your boat. b) resorts catering to fisherpesons sometimes have power available for trolling motor battery charging. However, a 48 volt battery bank that is deeply discharged (and it will be) will likely require more power than a 20 amp electrical circuit can supply (2300 watts). Tesla and other manufacturers face the same lack of charging capability. Current battery technology requires slow charge rates so those huge battery banks take a long time to charge. Solar charging was suggested at one point. Solar power is free you say! No it is not considering you would need a solar panel the size of the roof on your house to charge those large battery banks, and it wouldn't happen over night (darkness remember). I suggest you price a very large solar array as you "conceptualize" this aspect.

I will depart this discussion with again indicating it is silly to survey a topic where statements such as "all specs are the same" when it is clearly impossible for such a comparison to be made much less have a meaningful opinion on it. If this is really a serious assignment, then I suggest watching Rodney Dangerfields movie (I think it was "Back to School") where he confronts an Econ Instructor about the "theoretical" costs of starting a business. Rodney brought some very real points such as a railroad spur, cost of doing business with the unions, etc. The instructor quickly pointed out that these were not pertinent to the task. Ahhh -- Business 101. Unless we develop a small fuel cell, cold fusion, a really high tech/low cost battery, or miniaturize the Back to Future flux capacitor, electric power for the recreational boat industry will be another 10 - 15 years down the road. Yes I use an electric troller -- for fishing. Not as a prime mover. Bye -- I'm done here.