Continuing Problem with 2021 VP 250 hp 4.3 DI

[muc]

One thing I forgot to mention, If you pull the fuel filter and dump it it in a glass jar to check fuel again (and I sure would if your not going to inspect the tank) do NOT put the old one back on the engine unless you ARE 100% SURE there wasn't any contamination. This is something they really push at Volvo and MerCruiser schools. And use clean oil to lube the seal --- not the stuff on the dipstick --- save that trick for carb engines.

I'll remind you that you have a D.I. engine. These engines have proven themselves to be very powerful and robust. ----IF----- and this is the big if.
They NEED a very good battery
They NEED good fuel
They NEED a Captain who pays attention to warnings (like warning lights and horns)
Give them this and you will get a long lasting V6 with the power of a V8

 

[harringtondav]

Well let's see how much time I get.

Dave, you seem to be sure fuel isn't your problem --- I'm not.
Let me tell you where I'm coming from.
I've lost count of the times someone brought me a small runabout that didn't run right. Often they would tell how they or a different service provider had "pumped the tank empty" or "I added a lot of chemicals and good gas". At first I believed them. But I learned.

You tick quite a few boxes.
Transported fuel in gas cans to the boat.
Filled up at a sketchy marina.
Problem started right away or shortly after storage.
Engine computer is reporting 50% octane.

You're there and I'm not. Soooo
I looked at the pic you posted, That's a lot of crud for a filter with so little time on it. I assume it was replaced during winterization? The pic of the fuel needs to be a side view to tell anything. The bad stuff goes to the bottom.

I do know that adding ANY chemical to bad fuel can only make it worse, never better. Trying to dilute bad gas rarely works. The bad gas usually won't mix with good gas --- that's one of the things that make it bad gas.

The ONLY thing I would think about adding to gas is a good stabilizer before the boat is going to sit for more then 2-3 months
The only time I would add anything is if I had a D.I. engine like you have. I would use Chevron Techron Complete (or a comparable product that has been tested to the standards, I'm not aware of any others) if I wasn't able to fuel at least 1/2 the time at a Top Tier™ certified station. https://www.toptiergas.com

Next up is --- bad fuel isn't covered under warranty. So if you do go to dealer and they find bad fuel. Lets just say you just gave them a license to charge whatever they want.
All this over one of the easiest and cheapest tests that you can do. Costs less then plugs, car and rotor that most dealers will want to start with. You already have everything you need except 4' of soft copper tubing.

I see that you feel "safe" continuing to use the boat. Not sure why you would think that? The boat is doing everything it can to tell you to stop using it and get it fixed. Once again I'm not there --- but the question isn't if your causing more damage (you are) the only question is how much damage. You have had cat damaging misfires in the past, you don't have cats to worry about. But they just call them cat damage misfires because the cat is the weakest link and goes bad first, doesn't mean they are the only thing that gets damaged. Do not take comfort that you don't see codes. The MIL light and warning horn tell me you do. you just haven't found the right conditions to log them.

Here is what I recommend you do next.
Clear the codes with Diacom, do this before you start the engine, once complete, shut everything off including the battery switch and wait 2 minutes, power everything back up and check that all codes are gone. Next before starting the engine, clear the misfire counters with Diacom.
IMPORTANT: do NOT clear the Misfire adaptive memory that you will find in this area ONLY the counters. We will do adaptive memory once the engine is fixed.

Yes Diacom is a steep learning curve and requires knowledge of how all the engine systems work I first started with Diacom back in the MEFI days and those ECMs were pretty simple, still took me many many hours and hours to learn enough to make the job easier.

I try to carry a moving blanket to put over my head and laptop screen to cut down on the sun glare or I'll use a customer beach towel (as long as it doesn't smell too much!)

What I would like, is for it to take you 3-4 minutes to get to full throttle, hold it for 30-60 seconds and then 3-4 minutes to get back to idle. Ski start to full RPMs and hold for 30-60 seconds, back to idle keeping an eye on the stern wave. The big thing is for each recording to be as consistent as the others. Patience is a trait that all good troubleshooters have.

The picture of the plug is from the wrong angle and reading plugs on a computer monitor isn't best.
No I haven't seen any reason to replace plugs yet. Once we get some consistent misfires and fuel trims, then I would think about swapping the plugs in cylinders 1+2 with 5+6 for further testing. Do not try to check or change the gap on this type of spark plug without training. Very easy to convert a $25 plug to a $2.50 plug. Gap isn't all that critical with style ignition system.

Understood. I'm scheduled for the dealer on Jul 14. Dealer service scheduler told me they don't have VP diagnostic software, but are planning to get it but need training. (!!??).
So my Diacom is my best option and I plan on getting to the root with your guidance and good data before the visit. I plan on bringing my laptop with the evidence. Maybe have them download Diacom's latest update and the good .rec files. ...I can show them how if they're willing.
I need to visit Diacom training to learn how to clear codes before my next data gathering runs.
Not tracking with the 4' of flex copper tubing.
I saw the 50% octane reading. Doesn't compute. Land and gas dock fuel has been 89% no ethanol recreation gas. I've cycled at least 20 gals through the engine as of the last recording. ....could an input be off or miscalculating?
Black cursor and Bimini top helped 2nd record session. I'll use the towel as a glare reducer next time. I was in too much of a hurry previously. I'll slow down and get the tests as you specify.

 

[harringtondav]

One thing I forgot to mention, If you pull the fuel filter and dump it it in a glass jar to check fuel again (and I sure would if your not going to inspect the tank) do NOT put the old one back on the engine unless you ARE 100% SURE there wasn't any contamination. This is something they really push at Volvo and MerCruiser schools. And use clean oil to lube the seal --- not the stuff on the dipstick --- save that trick for carb engines.

I'll remind you that you have a D.I. engine. These engines have proven themselves to be very powerful and robust. ----IF----- and this is the big if.
They NEED a very good battery
They NEED good fuel
They NEED a Captain who pays attention to warnings (like warning lights and horns)
Give them this and you will get a long lasting V6 with the power of a V8

All understood. All fuel filter checks were followed with a fresh filter.
Battery will be four years old in August. Dash gauge shows 13+ V running. I'll check with a VOM as part of my next check. I'll gladly replace if it solves the problem or gives better data.
Alarms and performance have kept the boat on the lift except for diagnostic runs and one 1 hr pleasure run. The next hr will be only for more diagnostics.

 

[muc]

Understood. I'm scheduled for the dealer on Jul 14. Dealer service scheduler told me they don't have VP diagnostic software, but are planning to get it but need training. (!!??).
So my Diacom is my best option and I plan on getting to the root with your guidance and good data before the visit. I plan on bringing my laptop with the evidence. Maybe have them download Diacom's latest update and the good .rec files. ...I can show them how if they're willing.
I need to visit Diacom training to learn how to clear codes before my next data gathering runs.
Not tracking with the 4' of flex copper tubing.
I saw the 50% octane reading. Doesn't compute. Land and gas dock fuel has been 89% no ethanol recreation gas. I've cycled at least 20 gals through the engine as of the last recording. ....could an input be off or miscalculating?
Black cursor and Bimini top helped 2nd record session. I'll use the towel as a glare reducer next time. I was in too much of a hurry previously. I'll slow down and get the tests as you specify.

It's possible your dealer has ordered Vodia 4. This is laptop software they came out with. Years ago, the best diagnostic set up was Diacom for the gasoline engines. Volvo also sold a hand held called Vodia, it was much slower for gas engines. But was needed anytime a software update was needed. To use Vodia the tech needed to be trained at Volvo school and as you progressed thru the years of training, with each class Volvo would unlock a higher level. If I remember right there were 5 levels and you couldn't reflash until the tech reached level 4. The dealers I worked for during this time didn't buy Vodia due to the $$$ of buying the tool and the worry that the tech might quit, thereby losing the ability to use this very expensive tool. And it didn't really matter because Diacom worked better. We would just call in the 5 state area tech rep whenever we needed to reflash a ECM and they would do it for us, This was a very rare occurrence back then, maybe once or twice a year. This all changed when we started selling boats with the IPS system (pod drives that were under the boat) now we're calling the rep 4 times in the first couple of months. That's when we started pushing for Vodia, but Volvo told us to wait because they were about to come out with the lap top Vodia 4. The Vodia 4 was billed as everything Diacom was and more. I trained on it the last year before I retired, back then it also had levels that the tech needed to achieve to unlock more features. My past employer purchased this system after I left, but from talking to the techs, they liked it. This would be good for you if this is what your dealer is talking about because Vodia is just like MerCruiser G3, every time you connect to an engine it checks the software installed and alerts you if there is a better program available. Your engine has software installed that's 5 years old, so there might be an update.

Clearing codes with Diacom is pretty straightforward, if you have questions just ask.

The 4' of soft copper tubing gets attached to your oil sucker and is bendable so you can get to the lowest corner of the tank to get all the nasties out.

The octane rating you see on Diacom is just a number between 0 and 100. It's calculated by the ECM based of of a number is things. But all these things are like so much of this ECM, certain conditions must be meet for a certain amount of time. Your 50% might be an old reading because you haven't met those conditions. I also think (but not sure) that this is one of those things that are disabled anytime there is warning present. I'm not real worried about your 50% reading, it's just that that's a little low based on my memories. If I get time I'll look at some of the saved files from other engines and try to confirm.

 

[muc]

All understood. All fuel filter checks were followed with a fresh filter.
Battery will be four years old in August. Dash gauge shows 13+ V running. I'll check with a VOM as part of my next check. I'll gladly replace if it solves the problem or gives better data.
Alarms and performance have kept the boat on the lift except for diagnostic runs and one 1 hr pleasure run. The next hr will be only for more diagnostics.

The 4 year old battery is getting very near (or past) the normal life of a boat battery here in MN. Using a VOM is good, but the important reading is what the ECM thinks it sees during cranking (that's really all that matters). I have had batteries that tested good out of the boat, but would still cause problems with the ECM. After I retired and we moved to an area that the only twin engine boats were a kicker or trolling motor. I took a job at the best dealer I could find in our area working the service counter. We sold many boat brands, one of which was Ranger. Most of these had high horse power Mercs. One of the first things I was taught was the ANY boat that came in for service that had a Verado on it needed to have an AGM battery less then 4 years old. If the motor needed any service at all we wouldn't touch it until a new battery was installed. I thought this to be crazy, but after talking to the techs, they told me they had been burned soo many times by a bad battery they had to institute that policy!

If I was going to "throw parts" at your boat, I would start with a good battery and distributor cap and rotor. The only thing I've seen so far is excessive misfires on 1,2 and 3. The only thing I can think of is those cylinders are next to each other in the firing order. 1-6-5-4-3-2
But due to your symptoms, I wouldn't go there just yet. Your call, I don't spend customer money without being as sure as I can be.

 

[harringtondav]

The 4 year old battery is getting very near (or past) the normal life of a boat battery here in MN. Using a VOM is good, but the important reading is what the ECM thinks it sees during cranking (that's really all that matters). I have had batteries that tested good out of the boat, but would still cause problems with the ECM. After I retired and we moved to an area that the only twin engine boats were a kicker or trolling motor. I took a job at the best dealer I could find in our area working the service counter. We sold many boat brands, one of which was Ranger. Most of these had high horse power Mercs. One of the first things I was taught was the ANY boat that came in for service that had a Verado on it needed to have an AGM battery less then 4 years old. If the motor needed any service at all we wouldn't touch it until a new battery was installed. I thought this to be crazy, but after talking to the techs, they told me they had been burned soo many times by a bad battery they had to institute that policy!

If I was going to "throw parts" at your boat, I would start with a good battery and distributor cap and rotor. The only thing I've seen so far is excessive misfires on 1,2 and 3. The only thing I can think of is those cylinders are next to each other in the firing order. 1-6-5-4-3-2
But due to your symptoms, I wouldn't go there just yet. Your call, I don't spend customer money without being as sure as I can be.

Diacom's good training video showed me how to clear codes today.
As far as "do NOT clear the Misfire adaptive memory", it looks like code clearing is an all or nothing process. If I see the ability to step over this I will.
I'll clear the codes tomorrow am and fetch my boating pal for data collection. He's a good pilot and can run the throttle per your protocol. I'll run the laptop.

 

[muc]

Diacom's good training video showed me how to clear codes today.
As far as "do NOT clear the Misfire adaptive memory", it looks like code clearing is an all or nothing process. If I see the ability to step over this I will.
I'll clear the codes tomorrow am and fetch my boating pal for data collection. He's a good pilot and can run the throttle per your protocol. I'll run the laptop.

When you select the clear misfire data, you get a warning screen that basically says what I told you. just click OK that you read the warning and the next screen will let you choose --- counters-adaptation-both ---

This screen gives a clue as to why a good dealer charges so darn much, and why the uninformed call them a "stealership".
Let's say you bring the boat in for a damaged prop. We don't just slap a new prop on and call it good, We get out the dial indicator and check prop shaft run-out, We hook up the computer and clear misfire counters and adaptation after taking a look at pending, active and previous codes, And we might take a gear lube sample if the prop was damaged enough. And then we clean and regrease the shaft before installing the new prop and torquing it. So all in you're looking at $200-$300 labor on top of the prop. All for something as "simple" as a prop swap. Unfortunately this is one of the "hidden" costs of owning a highly advanced engine that gives you great power and efficiency. Is it worth it? My answer is --- it depends on what the owner wants out of their boat.

So this is a good way to rate a service provider. Just ask them how much to replace a prop on one of these newer engine packages. Tell them the prop is pretty damaged and has 1/4 of a blade missing (not rebuildable). If they quote you a high number and explain why it costs so much, you found a good dealer. If they shoot you a low quote, you found a cheap dealer.
Now you can decide if you want good or cheap, because you can't have both.

 

[harringtondav]

The 4 year old battery is getting very near (or past) the normal life of a boat battery here in MN. Using a VOM is good, but the important reading is what the ECM thinks it sees during cranking (that's really all that matters). I have had batteries that tested good out of the boat, but would still cause problems with the ECM. After I retired and we moved to an area that the only twin engine boats were a kicker or trolling motor. I took a job at the best dealer I could find in our area working the service counter. We sold many boat brands, one of which was Ranger. Most of these had high horse power Mercs. One of the first things I was taught was the ANY boat that came in for service that had a Verado on it needed to have an AGM battery less then 4 years old. If the motor needed any service at all we wouldn't touch it until a new battery was installed. I thought this to be crazy, but after talking to the techs, they told me they had been burned soo many times by a bad battery they had to institute that policy!

If I was going to "throw parts" at your boat, I would start with a good battery and distributor cap and rotor. The only thing I've seen so far is excessive misfires on 1,2 and 3. The only thing I can think of is those cylinders are next to each other in the firing order. 1-6-5-4-3-2
But due to your symptoms, I wouldn't go there just yet. Your call, I don't spend customer money without being as sure as I can be.

Diacom's good training video showed me how to clear codes today.
As far as "do NOT clear the Misfire adaptive memory", it looks like code clearing is an all or nothing process. If I see the ability to step over this I will.
I'll clear the codes tomorrow am and fetch my boating pal for data collection. He's a good pilot and can run the throttle per your protocol. I'll run the laptop.

When you select the clear misfire data, you get a warning screen that basically says what I told you. just click OK that you read the warning and the next screen will let you choose --- counters-adaptation-both ---

Latest .rec files attached. I cleared and verified all codes were gone.
I couldn't find the pick on Diacom to clear misfire data. I Googled it for Diacom and found a member on a different fourm who said to go the 'Tests' tab and select clear misfire data. It wasn't there, just various system tests. I hope this doesn't taint these files.
First engine file is the cold start warm up you requested. The remaining four were recorded per your instructions. We kept each test as close as possible in rpm, time, etc.
I hope these files are good for your analysis. If not I'll run them again, but I need guidance on clearing the misfire data first.
Thanks again.

 

[harringtondav]

Latest .rec files attached. I cleared and verified all codes were gone.
I couldn't find the pick on Diacom to clear misfire data. I Googled it for Diacom and found a member on a different fourm who said to go the 'Tests' tab and select clear misfire data. It wasn't there, just various system tests. I hope this doesn't taint these files.
First engine file is the cold start warm up you requested. The remaining four were recorded per your instructions. We kept each test as close as possible in rpm, time, etc.
I hope these files are good for your analysis. If not I'll run them again, but I need guidance on clearing the misfire data first.
Thanks again.

@muc
ps. I just called Diacom and was told if the misfire counters were supported in my ECM they wold be under the "Test" tab. Nothing found there.

 

[muc]

@muc
ps. I just called Diacom and was told if the misfire counters were supported in my ECM they wold be under the "Test" tab. Nothing found there.

I don't know why. You have what is basically a catalyst engine without the cats, maybe that has something to do with it?
Did you try both KOEO and KOER?

I'll try to look at the new files when I get time.

 

[harringtondav]

I don't know why. You have what is basically a catalyst engine without the cats, maybe that has something to do with it?
Did you try both KOEO and KOER?

I'll try to look at the new files when I get time.

KOEO only. I'll go out and try KOER now.

 

[harringtondav]

KOEO only. I'll go out and try KOER now.

Same choices either way

 

[muc]

Hi Dave, I started looking at the files. First thing I see is in the first file (07 07 2025 09 44 47) What I'm seeing is that during cranking the batt voltage drops to 8.75 and ign. switch volts drops to 7.14
There is a problem with the battery or wires/connections. Time for a new battery and rerun the data monitor while starting a cold engine. I wouldn't spend any time on testing seeing as how you have a 4 year old battery.

Next is see that during this session a couple of DTCs were set. 1312 and 0302 note that Diacom is calling that 302, it's missing the first zero -- why I don't know -- glitch somewhere? Also the DTCs are missing freeze frame data -- don't know why, same as I don't know why clear misfire data option isn't available to you. You state the Rinda says it should be there if Volvo included it in the software -- a question I'm guessing only Volvo tech support can answer -- maybe has to do with you having a cat engine without the cats?
What I do see is that two DTCs set during a period of idling. This is very unusual. I've never seen misfire DTCs set at idle. The engine also went in to Derate 2 due to the misfire DTCs. But those two things happening caused the rest of the files to be pretty much worthless, but I was able to see the misfire counter going crazy on cylinder 2. Went from 4644 to 11050 during this session. Misfire issues are one of the worst to troubleshoot. SOO many things can cause them, basically just about anything from the fuel in tank to the prop and almost everything between those two.

Because of how time consuming this could get with you doing more Diacom recordings and me having to explain the exact steps before and during each of these test runs. If I was there my advice would be different, but I'm not --- so

This is what I recommend.
Replace battery with a high quality one that meets or exceeds the specs for your engine. Owners manual or ask and I can look it up.
Replace distributor cap and rotor with high quality, Volvo Penta or better.
Switch the spark plugs in cylinders 2+4
If possible (I didn't work on many 4.3s so you'll have to see if they reach) switch the spark plug wires at both the cap and plug between 2+4 .
Do these 4 things one at a time with testing after each one.

Sorry but I had to rush to finish this and probably missed a few thing. But my phone rang and now the rest of my week might be shot.

 

[muc]

couple of other thoughts for you
I would call your dealer and ask about Vodia 5. It could be in your best interests to go to someone with Vodia 5, I have questions about the software in your ECM. The misfire counter reset issue, the lack of freeze frame data on active codes and some other stuff.
800-522-1959


I need to modify the instructions on how to make a .rec file

1. After making the first file, when you slow down and return to neutral.
2. In Diacom click the button on the left side of the screen to de-link.
3. Turn key off for 15-30 seconds.
4. Turn key back on.
5. Link Diacom.
6 .Pick the next monitor to record.
7. Start engine and do the recording.
Back to 1

I had forgot that some faults "latch" on and stay for the rest of the key cycle.