1963 Johnson 18hp ignition problems - I'm stumped

[weezyq8]

Hi everyone,

I have been a lurker on this website for a few months now (since I got an old outboard motor), but I have never had the need to post anything. It seems like there are tons of very knowledgeable people here, and I would really appreciate any help I can get.

I picked up a 1963 Johnson FD-17 (18hp) engine from a family friend, and he says it has been sitting in his barn for about 20 years now. He also said that it has very low hours on it, and ran perfectly when he put it up. So after reading through tons of posts in the forums, I decided to get a carb kit, ignition tune-up kit, coils, plug wires, spark plugs, and a thermostat from NAPA. I rebuilt the carb (it was surprisingly clean, but the throttle valve was seized), replaced the thermostat, and went through the whole ignition system (because one of the plugs wasn't firing when I got it, even with new plugs). After I assembled everything yesterday, I checked to make sure it had spark, and both plugs had a nice blue spark. So I put them back in and tried pulling it a dozen times, but nothing happened. After an hour of troubleshooting fuel and air, I pulled the plugs again and found that they were no longer getting spark. I have gone through the whole ignition system again and have found nothing wrong as far as I can tell. Does anyone have any ideas?

Some things I checked/don't understand:
-coils are flush with the machined edges of the timing plate
-tested resistance in primary and secondary coils, both look good (on both coils)
-points are clean

-Am I turning the flywheel fast enough for spark? Is there a minimum speed to get a spark?
-What is the white wire/hose coming out from right under the timing plate and going into the base of the engine?
-What are the wires coming out of the points bases and going to my keyswitch outlet? (one from each point base)
-Does a keyswitch need to be plugged in for the ignition to work? (I don't think so, because I saw spark before)

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to give as much detail as possible. Thanks for any input you can offer.

-weezy

 

[HighTrim]

Re: 1963 Johnson 18hp ignition problems - I'm stumped

Welcome to iboats.

Lets talk spark first. You say you tested the resistance on the secondary. Did you measure it from the ground to the spring in the plug boot? Just ensuring there is continuity all along the plug lead as well as the coil. Might have been a bad connection at the wire to coil, or wire to spark plug boot spring.

Rergarding the points. Even the oil from your fingers will hinder spark. Dip a business card in acetone and run it through to ENSURE they are clean. Ensure first that the gap is 020 when the rubbing block is aligned with the flywheel key. A 022 feeler gauge should not go through, and an 018 should go through loose.

You used metallic core wire right?

If you are using the recoil, you should be spinning it plenty fast enough. No worries there.

The wires from the points to the keyswitch is the kill circuit. That is what stops the motor. Possible there is an issue there. Could try disconnecting them to rule that out.

Dont need the wiring harness to generate spark. Should be able to do it manually.

 

[JDusza]

Re: 1963 Johnson 18hp ignition problems - I'm stumped

Welcome to the forum.
We'll have to go back and check the ignition work. The comment about the key is bothersome. As HT recommends, disconnect them for now. That'll remove the kill circuit from the list of things that can go wrong.
Review your parts installations. Best bet to check spark is with an air gap spark tester. Look for the spark to jump 3/8" air gap. It's possible, but not likely, that the spark power you had at atmospheric pressure was not enough to spark under compression.
So, review ignition kill circuit, all parts installation, air gap spark test, and then, ...
Magneto coils flush with machined edge of timing plate is a so what.... the important gap is between the magnets of the flywheel and the end of the coil. make sure there is no contact between the magnetos and flywheel.
Flywheel has to turn about 250 rpm minimum to create minimum spark energy. Pull starting is usually way more than required.
J
p.s., seems odd you'd lose both cylinders' spark. that usually indicates the kill circuit......maybe...

 

[weezyq8]

Re: 1963 Johnson 18hp ignition problems - I'm stumped

Hi Chris,

I actually tested the coils just like it said to in the article on this website:
Testing an Outboard Coil with a Multimeter using an ignition coil from the Johnson H or T

What do you mean measure it from the ground to the plug boot? Which ground are you referring to? I think my plug boot springs are getting a good connection because I have continuity between the spring and the other end of the wire, and about 6k ohms between the spring and the small black wire on the top of the coil.
I cleaned the brand new points with a paper towels but no chemicals. I can try the acetone though. And the gaps were set probably 3 or 4 different times to make sure they are right...
I am using 7mm copper core wire that I had to order online because I couldnt find it at any stores...
And I tried disconnecting the kill switch wires but still nothing...
Anything else I'm missing? Thanks for your helpful input.

 

[kfa4303]

Re: 1963 Johnson 18hp ignition problems - I'm stumped

Hi weezy. Sounds like you're doing everything right. There's no real "minimum" speed you need to turn the flywheel. I have a '66 20hp Johnson and it starts in 1-2 regular pulls. Sometimes it's best to step away and start fresh. I'm assuming the motor has good compression (right?) and it sounds like you cleaned the carb thoroughly which only leaves spark. I would completely assemble one side of the ignition, replace the flywheel and rotate it a few times to confirm spark then do the other side. Also, make sure that the s'plug wire from the coil above the carb goes to the #1/top s'plug. Here's a great link that can walk you through an entire rebuild from start to finish as well as a general tune up link.

3 HP Evinrude Lightwin Ignition System Tune-Up 1952-1967
Maintaining Johnson E & FD Serie

 

[HighTrim]

Re: 1963 Johnson 18hp ignition problems - I'm stumped

Yes sorry the small black wire on top of the coil is its ground. SO you were testing as I described.

I think you may have chunks of paper towel between your points limiting spark. Dip a business card, or fresh/clean paper in acetone and run it through, ensuring no chunks break off. They usually include a piece of paper in your package for you new points for doing this as well.

 

[weezyq8]

Re: 1963 Johnson 18hp ignition problems - I'm stumped

J,

I have tried disconnecting the ground/keyswitch wires and taping them off, but that didn't help, so I re-attached them. I can take them off again and leave them off until I figure this out, I guess. What really confuses me, is that I clearly saw spark on both plugs before putting them in and testing them, so I feel like there is either a short somewhere, or the coils are not at the right position with respect to the flywheel magnets. But the coils were tightened down pretty good, which means they shouldn't have moved...sounds like I need to get a spark tester to confirm that I'm not just blind and can't see the spark.

kfa,

The first time that I saw spark in both plugs, I was using the pull starter to slowly turn over the engine. But after I finished troubleshooting everything else, I was just turning the flywheel as fast as I could by hand. Could this be an issue? I have comp checked the cylinders, and they both get about 60psi by pulling the rope a dozen times. i'm hoping this is normal for an engine that's been sitting for a while and has dried up inside the cylinders. But I'm more worried about the spark problem right now. I actually used the link you just sent to help during my tune-up so I hope all is correct.

HT,

I will try to clean the points with something "firmer" today, like a business card and see what happens.

I'm getting pretty frustrated with this thing by now, it feels like i'm doing everything correctly, but it still won't work right... Anyway, thanks for your help everyone, and I'll give you an update this afternoon when I get off work.

 

[kfa4303]

Re: 1963 Johnson 18hp ignition problems - I'm stumped

Hello again weezy. 60 psi is a little low. You're looking for something closer to 80+ psi, but it will probably get better once the motor is up and running. The most important thing is that the 2 cylinders are within 10% of each other. Spinning the flywheel by hand usually works on smaller hp motos, but it may not quite be powerful enough or these 18-20hp motors. I would put the pull starter back on to check he spark. I know it's frustrating, but stick with it. If I can do it so can you. These motor are dead simple. As long as they have spark, fuel and compression, they'll run. The key is to be methodical and fix one system at a time, then move on to the next. Keep at it. Holler if you have any more questions.

 

[HighTrim]

Re: 1963 Johnson 18hp ignition problems - I'm stumped

Likely not going to get good spark turning by hand. PUt the recoil on and try again. I just dont torque the flywheel nut until I know all is well.

 

[cajuncook1]

Re: 1963 Johnson 18hp ignition problems - I'm stumped

Weezy, couple things that need to be addressed.

Compression and spark.

Hopefully, the compression is low from the rings being all coked up with carbon from sitting, because 60psi is very low compression for that motor.

I have a 1963 Evinrude 18hp motor. I bought it about 5 months ago. The 93 years gentlemen I purchased from stated it was used very little. He was the original owner and stated that it had not been run since the 1970's. I check the compression cold and dry and got >120psi on both cylinders.

* As High Trim stated, you definitely need to put the starter on the motor and crank it good to check for spark and compression. Please do so and let us know what you get.

** A possibility, other than carboned/coked up piston rings is that the motor could have over heated and compromised the cylinder head gasket in between the cylinders and it is loosing pressure due to blown head gasket. Easy fix.





Since you are in the ignition and have the flywheel off, lets go down that path. Here is some information, that I posted for another member. Most of the information should help you.



Your going to need to inspect your point, condenser and coils. They are located under the flywheel. Hopefully all you need to do is clean and regap your points and you might be in business. Still check your coils and condensers and plug wires.


Here is how to pop your flywheel off and it gives you information about re-torquing you flywheel nut.

How to Change Coils and set points on old OMC's*/ 294072


Here are two link to show you how to test your coils and condensers.

How to test a coil in an antique outboard engine - YouTube

Antique Outboards and all about condensers - YouTube




How to replace your coils, points and condenser. Please take digital pictures as you go, so it will help you return everything back in the right order. Keep cheap zip lock bags available to put your parts in so you don't lose them. They are small.

If your coils are good, but your points and or condensers are bad, then you can certainly order a set of points and condenser here from iboats. Easy breezy.

Here is some information I put together for a guy on another forum, but the information should help you out just the same.

Here is a diagram of a generic OMC (Johnson/Evinrudle/Gale) ignition assembly. You will have to remove the coil designated for the top cylinder and put the oil wicker in. It should be already be coated with a very light oil. (not grease). The purpose of the oil wicker is to lightly lubricate the outside riding surface of the cam so the point shoes do not prematurely wear. If you look at the points they have little shoes that ride along the cam. Please make sure the (breaker)points cam is on the correct side or the ignition will be out of timing. It should have the word [highlight]top[/highlight] machine written on the side facing up.

FYI: You can only set(gap) one set of points at a time. Put the flywheel nut back on(turn with a wrench or ratchet clockwise) to allow you turn the crankshaft. (Please remove both spark plugs to make it easier to turn the crankshaft and prevent accidental starting)

You gap the point to 0.020 when the point shoes is at the top(high point of the cam). It should have a mark along with the word top. Then you will turn clockwise to the next set of point 180 degrees and set those points the same way. You will notice that the point of the previous set will be closed and when you come around again they will open up. *** When they are open no current is allow through. This is how you set your timing with the points.***

When you go to set the point's gap. Very gently snug the anchor screw, then adjust the gap with adjusting screw and the feeler gauge until the feeler gauge is sliding through with slight resistance only. Then tighten the anchor screw. Repeat procedure with second set of points. Please make sure your hands are clean and the feeler gauge is clean, because oil on the points can foul them up and create resistance....poor or no no spark. ALways use a spark check to evaluate spark. It should jump minimum 1/4 inch. Blue sharp snappy spark.

Here is a picture of a spark check...Cheap $6

Here is a picture of how to tell which wire is going to the correct cylinder. Thanks to Garry for providing the picture on other post.

If your using the existing wires then cut about 1/4 inch of end going the coil, so you have clean un-oxidized copper contacting the spiking in the coil. Twist the end of the spark plug wire onto the coil spike. If you have replaced the wires, make sure they are 7mm copper metal core and not the automobile stuff.

***** Please make sure two things*****

1.) Make sure all the wires are tucked away under the flywheel and not rubbing up against the cam or crank, because with will eventually get damage and create a short, then no spark!!

2.) Make sure the coil heels (ends) are evenly lined up with the mounting boss.

Here are some pictures. (Compliments of JBJennings..nice fella)

Lining up the coil heel with the mounting boss prevent damage of the coils and the flywheel magnet, prevent rubbing as the flywheel turns.

[highlight]*** Make sure the throttle is advanced to that start position***[/highlight]


Here is another picture that Garry (thanks Garry!!) supplied on another post with some modification.

Both diagrams, should answer your questions.

 

[cajuncook1]

Re: 1963 Johnson 18hp ignition problems - I'm stumped

Here is a good example of how your ignition plate should look and the how the wire should be oriented. Look you can even see the oil wicker.

***Post a picture of your ignition and of motor with the cover off, so we can evaluate your ignition and also check to see if your motor has possibly over head at some point.

*** Make sure both sets of spark plugs are removed when you go to recheck compression.

 

[weezyq8]

Re: 1963 Johnson 18hp ignition problems - I'm stumped

Thanks for your advice and input everyone. I have completely gone through the ignition system again with no luck. Everything is brand new, from the coils to the points and condensers and even the plug wires and boots. So faulty parts shouldn't be an issue. I have also tested the coils and condensers and they seem to be fine. Yesterday I purchased a spark tester to verify that I was getting no spark, and it looks like that is still the case. I put the pull start back on and still had no luck. I also tried removing those key switch ground wires from the condensers (which I still haven't seen any reference to in any of the articles I read). I haven't had a chance to try it out again. I don't have a lot of confidence that anything will change though. I will take pictures and post them tonight, perhaps someone will be able to spot something I missed. Thanks again guys.

 

[HighTrim]

Re: 1963 Johnson 18hp ignition problems - I'm stumped

Key switch ground wires to condensors? You mean to the points? Could you post a pic or your magneto so we can see what is going on?

 

[weezyq8]

Re: 1963 Johnson 18hp ignition problems - I'm stumped

Sorry, I meant the points. You are correct.

I was writing that while eating so my mind was elsewhere

 

[nwcove]

Re: 1963 Johnson 18hp ignition problems - I'm stumped

have you checked the flywheel magnets to see if they are still good and strong? as mentioned, a picture is worth a thousand words!!!

 

[weezyq8]

Re: 1963 Johnson 18hp ignition problems - I'm stumped

I have just stuck a metal screwdriver against the magnets, and they seemed to stick alright. Not really powerful, like had to pull hard to get it off, but not too weak either... I just took some pics to show my setup.



The rest are too big so I will upload them to imgur and then link them. Give me a few minutes.

 

[weezyq8]

Re: 1963 Johnson 18hp ignition problems - I'm stumped

Ok, I created an album with all of the pictures here. There are descriptions above each picture. Let me know what you guys think.

 

[nwcove]

Re: 1963 Johnson 18hp ignition problems - I'm stumped

the dirty white hose thing has nothing to do with the ignition, im quite sure its the oil feed line to the top crank bearing.
from looking at the pics, the first thing id do is remove the kill circuit wires from the mix completely. ( the ones that appear to be hanging loose). just to rule them out without doubt. everything else looks ok other than tucking the coil wires down and away so as they dont chaffe on the spinning flywheel.

 

[weezyq8]

Re: 1963 Johnson 18hp ignition problems - I'm stumped

Ok, the thing about the white wire makes sense. If I remove the kill circuit wires, is there another way to shut off the engine once it's potentially running? If there is, I will take them completely off of the engine. They are just in the way right now, but they would be very difficult to get back on once I take them off because of the way they are routed around the base of the engine...

 

[HighTrim]

Re: 1963 Johnson 18hp ignition problems - I'm stumped

Choking it will kill it. that is how it was done before grounding the points.

Now, regarding wiring, as stated above, before you tighten the wires off the condensors, pull those loops down, or the flywheel will shred them. Same with the ground leads for the coils, get the one off the top, then pull them tight into the coil, away from crank, before tightening screw.

Your points have to be dirty. If the condensors tested good, the coils primary and secondary are metering as they should, you are getting continuity from the coil ground to the plug boot, the laminations are at the edge of the mounting boss, the magnet is ok, and the kill circuit is not grounding out, the points is all that is left.

Have you cleaned them by running a business card dipped in acetone through them a few times? Maybe run some emory cloth through them first, folded over, then the acetone.