1996 Regal 17.6 Avanti restoration using composite materials

[kpiazzisi]

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

Ezmobee,
I checked out the link that you sent. He did an awsome job, lots of other people on here also have done some awsome work. I noticed he has a little helper. I have two girls and a wife that thinks I spend way too much time and $ on the boat. Oh well. I cut the transom out today and it was completly rotted. One of the studs on the bell housing that extends into the transom plate was completly rusted and half the diameter it's suppose to be.

I took the rotted wood out, and now I am left with this material that doesn't look like fiberglass, wood or Gel Coat. I was hoping someone could take a look at the PIC and figure it out. I not sure if I should sand it off and go all the way to the fiberglass?

Thanks everyone for the encouragement.

 

[kpiazzisi]

Need some help please

Need some help please

I have the top off and the boat stripped down to the stringers. I have been doing a lot of research on how to replace the stringers. Fortunately there are a lot of Fiberglass companies close to where I live. Fiberglass Services is only about two miles from me, so at least I got that going for me.

Most of the rot was in the back two corners of the boat, however most if not all of the stringers have mild rot working from the bottom up. The bottom inch or so of the stringers are shades of grey and black. When I cut the fiberglass woven roving skin over the gray/black areas if find mildly soft wood. Not as soft as mulch, but I'm able to push a screw driver into the wood without using a hammer.

My stringer system is very elaborate, making replacing them more difficult. I am struggling with the idea of putting wood back into the boat. If it gets wet at all, eventually the rot will just start all over again. I have research two products that are pourable. One is called Arjays (polyester ceramic) and the other is Sea Cast. One method used with these products involves cutting back the top skin of the stringer, and then carving out the wood with a chain saw. I tried this and it was very time intensive and not very effective. The top of my stringers are good, so the saw has to work hard to cut the good wood out. Since the wood is sandwiched between the thick fiberglass skin, there is nowhere for the heat to dissipate. This makes the chain saw very ineffective. The fiberglass as well as some rusted screws from the deck ( could not get them out) also dull the blade, making the chain saw method of coring the stringers basically useless.

I am really discouraged at this point and don't know how to go about completing this project. I could removing all the stringers and start from scratch. I took a portion of one stringer out (before I decided to try the carving out method) by cutting at the base with a cut off wheel, and hammering the stringer out. I was wondering if a saws all might be faster?

If I take all the stringers out, I am thing about using a foam called Plasticore (sold at Fiberglass Services). It's 80 bucks for a 4x8 sheet. That is probably the cheap part, because it needs to be layered on both sides by Mat and then cloth. I am sure this will eat up a lot of epoxy resin? I can get 6 Gallons of epoxy resin at UScomposites for $288.00, but I don't even think that this would be enough for wet in all the Mat and cloth to cover the Plasticore stringers. What do you think?

I am looking for ideas of how to make this a cheaper and easier project. I am really hoping to stay away from wood. If anyone has any ideas please help.

 

[Kiwifisher]

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

You can replace your stringers with any material really if you use glass to provide the strength. I've personally used 2" pvc pipe in a small runabout I once did. Killed 2 birds with 1 stone as the pipe served as a drain from the anchor well to the bilge as well. To cut the costs, use polyester resin. Epoxy is really an overkill for what you are doing.

I know it can seem overwhelming at this stage but do one step at a time. Clean your transom skin right down to the glass and grind it smooth. Cut out all the stringers you want/need to replace and grind the inside of the hull smooth. Then plan on re-fitting. Don't try planning too many steps ahead as you'll get yourself overwhelmed with detail.

Good luck and keep posting.

 

[ezmobee]

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

Look into Nidabond as well. Couple members here have used it and liked it. Cheaper than SeaCast.

 

[kpiazzisi]

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

So you think I should rip all the stringers out? I have gone back and forth so many times on how to do this project. After struggling with trying to core out the dead wood, I think just taking everything out is the way to go? The only concern I have is getting the new stringers back together. It is so much work and the payoff just isn't there financially. When I am done I will have a boat that is worth 3 - 4K. I have asked earlier if it made since to do this, and so far nobody has said no. Here is what I have seen advertised on E-bay. Vortec bolt in 4.3 (bolt in and go) $1900.00. Mercruiser Alpha Gen II $1,000. Inca fuel tank $200.00. Captains Chair with slider ($200.00). Trailer ($300.00). All that adds up to $3600.00. Unless I want to keep it forever and make a youtube video of how emotionally attached I am to this boat, it simply doesn't make sense. Maybe a forum on how to fix a boat is not the right place to find encouragement on making a practical decision. I can appreciate that.

If anyone is reading this, can you send me a link to a thread that talks about older boats that were constructed completely out of fiberglass. I have searched google and forums and have not come up with anything. I would like to find on older center console in the 22-24 foot range where no wood was used during construction. Thank you Kiwifisher for listening and responding.

KP

 

[ezmobee]

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

It depends on how you look at it......

No you typically won't get your money back out of it. And you should probably only take on such a project if you really like the boat and plan to keep it a while.

On the other hand......any inexpensive older fiberglass boat you'd buy to replace this one would have the same chance of being rotted out. At least if you properly rebuilt this one you'd know the condition (and it would probably be built better than it was from the factory).

And people wonder why we tin boat guys are so evangelical

 

[Kiwifisher]

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

So you think I should rip all the stringers out? I have gone back and forth so many times on how to do this project. After struggling with trying to core out the dead wood, I think just taking everything out is the way to go? The only concern I have is getting the new stringers back together. It is so much work and the payoff just isn't there financially. When I am done I will have a boat that is worth 3 - 4K. I have asked earlier if it made since to do this, and so far nobody has said no. Here is what I have seen advertised on E-bay. Vortec bolt in 4.3 (bolt in and go) $1900.00. Mercruiser Alpha Gen II $1,000. Inca fuel tank $200.00. Captains Chair with slider ($200.00). Trailer ($300.00). All that adds up to $3600.00. Unless I want to keep it forever and make a youtube video of how emotionally attached I am to this boat, it simply doesn't make sense. Maybe a forum on how to fix a boat is not the right place to find encouragement on making a practical decision. I can appreciate that.

If anyone is reading this, can you send me a link to a thread that talks about older boats that were constructed completely out of fiberglass. I have searched google and forums and have not come up with anything. I would like to find on older center console in the 22-24 foot range where no wood was used during construction. Thank you Kiwifisher for listening and responding.

KP

In the long run it will be less work and more peace of mind to remove the stringers and start from a clean slate. You have a fair amount of work ahead of you, not difficult, just elbow grease. The decision you are facing now is to cut your losses and get another hull or to fix it. As EZ said earlier, there is no guarantee that the next hull will not have the same problems whereas once you've done it, you know it's good for another 20 years.

I understand and agree with your thoughts that we buy boats to use and not to start a new hobby called restoration. However, in the price range we are talking about, restoration is unfortunately a very real possibility. I bet you most of the posters on here did not decide to buy a boat just for the sake of having something to restore!

Even though your boat will still only be worth the same amount you paid for it after all the time and money put into it, if you are like me, you bought it really just to have fun in it and not to make some money on it. Only you can decide your course of action.

Wood in a boat is not really the problem, I have a wooden hull here that's 60 years + and as solid as the day it was built. The problem is cheapskate boat builders not providing adequate drainage to the the bilge coupled with neglectfull owners who believe that as a boat is made to float on water, it must be OK to leave it standing out in the rain and snow for years.

Good luck and let us know what you decide.

 

[kpiazzisi]

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

I checked out Nida Core. I was impressed with there website and products. Their Ceramic pourable transom is Polyester based with ceramic (same as Arjays) and similar in price. Sea Caste is the more expensive out of all three pourable transoms. I called Nida Core today, but their technical advisor was out.

I am glad kiwifisher brought up the point about water not adequately designed to drain to the bilge. I found a lot of sections in my boat where the water was trapped and the foam was soaking wet. Why do they design the boat this way? Is there a reason they have sections of the boat sealed from the other compartments? Is this for safety and flotation in the event the boat sinks? Had they not filled these sections with foam and provided drainage, my rot probably would not be half as bad as it is. Do I have to replace this foam and seal the section back up?

I now have all but the bow area down to the bare hull. I still may throw in the towel, but while I am deciding it's only costing me my time and grinding disks (let's not forget being itchy).

Thanks for your help

 

[Kiwifisher]

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

Why do they design the boat this way? Is there a reason they have sections of the boat sealed from the other compartments? Is this for safety and flotation in the event the boat sinks? Had they not filled these sections with foam and provided drainage, my rot probably would not be half as bad as it is. Do I have to replace this foam and seal the section back up?

That's why I HATE pourable foam! If you replace the flotation, use closed cell foam. The pink or blue stuff from HD. A lot of people use pool noodles. You can pack them in such a way as to still provide flotation. Design your new stringers to allow drainage to the bilge area like it should have been done originally. You've already done a lot of the hard elbow grease!

 

[ezmobee]

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

That's why I HATE pourable foam! If you replace the flotation, use closed cell foam. The pink or blue stuff from HD. A lot of people use pool noodles. You can pack them in such a way as to still provide flotation. Design your new stringers to allow drainage to the bilge area like it should have been done originally. You've already done a lot of the hard elbow grease!

Good point. Here's another great resto to check on which includes expert usage of sheet foam http://picasaweb.google.com/pacerdude/EntireDeckReplacement89Celebrity224se#

 

[kpiazzisi]

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

I saw this on another forum and had to copy it. I couldn't stop laughing, especially since I just got done removing all the wet heavy foam from my boat.

"Dig lots of heavy wet foam, with it gone its just like kicking two fat girls off the boat. Free Hp "

 

[seamorewaterVIP]

Re: Need some help please

Re: Need some help please

here is easier I give you 500.00 just like it sits.!!

 

[kpiazzisi]

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

I'll sell you Just the Hull for $500.00

 

[tallcanadian]

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

It breaks my heart to see a boat parted out, but you have to do what you think is best. I enjoyed doing mine and learned a ton. I really like my boat and would do it all over again...and again..lol. I know I've put more into it than it's worth but to me it's worth it. I feel awesome that I rebuilt it. Good luck.

 

[kpiazzisi]

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

I haven't tossed in the towel yet tallcanadian. It's just a consideration. I have watched your youtube video with the Alan Jackson song (when Daddy let me drive) playing in the background more then once. It tugged on my heart strings a little. I have two daughters 7 and 10, and it wouldn't be easy on me if I part this out. Ironically the boat also represents somthing that right now is taking a lot of time and $ away from them. Kind of complicated, but it will all work out.

I could sure use some of that cool Canadian weather down here while I'm working in 97 degrees with like 98 % humidity. The Tybec suit feels like a wet suit within 10 minutes.

 

[tallcanadian]

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

I haven't tossed in the towel yet tallcanadian. It's just a consideration. I have watched your youtube video with the Alan Jackson song (when Daddy let me drive) playing in the background more then once. It tugged on my heart strings a little. I have two daughters 7 and 10, and it wouldn't be easy on me if I part this out. Ironically the boat also represents somthing that right now is taking a lot of time and $ away from them. Kind of complicated, but it will all work out.

I could sure use some of that cool Canadian weather down here while I'm working in 97 degrees with like 98 % humidity. The Tybec suit feels like a wet suit within 10 minutes.

I'll bottle this weather up and send it to you. I woke this morning to 34F. It is way too early for this crap...lol. Hurricane Igor really shook things up for us. It sometimes gets frustrating at times and may cost a few bucks but the smiles on their faces next spring will be worth every nickel, even Canadian nickels.

 

[Solittle]

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

Check out this thread and note my comments on useing automotive antifreeze to kill the fungus that causes the rot.

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=243500&highlight=Solittle

 

[kpiazzisi]

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

I called a guy today selling an old aqua sport. He said that they are all fiberglass construction. He said the manufacturer used foam stringers with fiberglass over the top and sometimes the foam can become water soaked. Cape Horn is another manufacture that is also all fiberglass. Anyone know of any others?

 

[sschefer]

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

I called a guy today selling an old aqua sport. He said that they are all fiberglass construction. He said the manufacturer used foam stringers with fiberglass over the top and sometimes the foam can become water soaked. Cape Horn is another manufacture that is also all fiberglass. Anyone know of any others?

I believe the Allison's that are rot free do not have wood stringers. Bear in mind that the Allison's are a different breed of boat. I believe they are still all hand laid boats.

 

[kpiazzisi]

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

Re: Where is the hull leaking from PICs attached

I called Nida Core today and spoke to their technical advisor. He advised me that their HP8 product would be an excellent choice for stringers and deck. It is basically the same product as the Plasticore product I was researching earlier, but less expensive. I can get a 5/8 inch thick sheet of 4x8 direct from them for $56.00 dollars a sheet.

He said that once both sides are fiberglassed, the board will be stiffer then plywood. He also said that it is a great sound deadening material and will assure a nice quiet ride while bouncing over choppy waves. I asked him about EPS foam and he said that generally the foam cracks and then soaks up water. I am not going to put pourable expandable foam back into my boat.

I am going to go with Polyester resin. If was going to go with plywood stringers, transom and deck, I would definetly use Epoxy. Epoxy is 100% water proof, and a beter resin for trying to water proof wood. It is also better as an adhesive and has a much stronger bond. For me sealing wood will not be an issue. I feel I can get an adaquate bond with polyester as long as I prep the surface correctly. Since I have to laminate (wet in) a layer of matt followed by a layer of cloth on both sides of the deck I am going to go with polyester resin to cut down on costs. If anyone knows a reason why I shouldn't, then please let me know.

Thanks