2006 Four Winns Volvo Penta 5.0gxi-g Hesitation now won't start

Lou C

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Just a thought, is the Crank position sensor close the the serpentine belt? Could it have gotten bumped while replacing the belt?
 

dwelleyc1

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The sensor is right below the serpentine belt, so its possible. I removed it and reseated the connector, but could not contort myself enough to get my meter leads in the sensor itself to check anything.
 

dwelleyc1

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So I ran a few more tests today (pulled the boat out of the water so its in my driveway w/ the muffs on):

1. Checked fuel filter: It was full of fuel, poured into a clear glass jar, no debris or separation. Reinstalled with new fuel filled to the top
2. Checked impeller while I had everything away from the engine and the access was good, that looks brand new (not likely to be related to my issue, but I checked it for maintenance purposes)
3. Bought a new fuel pressure tester at Napa. Seems to have a better gauge than my other one, read about 3psi on the low pressure pump when the key is in the ON position, as soon as the pump turns off, pressure goes to 0.
4. Used new fuel pressure tester on high pressure rail at the schrader valve, I get 0 psi no matter what I do (key ON, cranking)
5. Checked voltage to both high and low fuel pressure pump connectors using the battery negative as a reference, had 12.5V on both connectors while the key was on for the first couple of seconds (priming), then went to 0.
6. Hooked reference lead of DVM meter to battery positive terminal, then checked the ground connection on the two fuel pump plugs. I get -12.5Vdc for both grounds at all times (as expected I believe)
7. Pulled anti-siphon and fuel pickup from tank, anti siphon was blown out and appeared to be passing air one way and not the other, seems to work. The pickup would not pull completely out of the tank, seems like something was catching on the bottom of the bung fitting (screen?) I looked down in and could see the screen, but could not see its condition. I blew down into the tube to see if the screen may have been plugged. I wouldn't suggest ever doing that since the air did indeed go down, but blew right back up after and into my mouth.

With the muffs and water on, I tried different starting scenarios:
1. Key on, wait for priming to complete, then crank
2. Key on, crank while priming
3. Key on, crank while priming, wait for engine to start/die, then continue holding key to crank

I was actually able to get the motor to start for about 3 seconds (most its done since changing the plugs) using scenario 2 above. As soon as it stalls in this scenario, I hear one chirp from the alarm. With all other scenarios I get no chirp when it stalls.

I also added some fuel to make sure my gauge wasn't acting up and that I wasn't out of fuel this whole time.

All that said, I've tried two different gauges and it doesn't seem like I am getting proper fuel pressure at all. Would you agree that my symptoms of starting and stalling immediately appear to be fuel starvation?

The pumps were just replaced over the winter, the hesitation issue was present before the pumps were replaced and after and I used it for a couple of hours before it quit starting completely. Do you think I have a blockage either in my tank or in the fuel line feeding the pumps or does this seem like a failed pump?
 

alldodge

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Would you agree that my symptoms of starting and stalling immediately appear to be fuel starvation?

Yes

Measuring Pumps before start reads 12V. Key ON they go to zero, but still no pressure.

Take a gas can, a piece of gas line at connect line to low pressure pump inlet side. Connect pressure gauge to HP pump side. Prime it with key ON/OFF and keep bleed off pressure relase on the pressure gauge open (depressed). Once fuel starts showing up, prime a couple more times then try to start
 

dwelleyc1

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Ok I will try that. so I would supply the fuel from the external gas tank? It is sitting in my driveway, is there a preferred location to put the external gas can for safety or does anywhere work? Does the can need to be within a certain distance of the fuel pump or could it be outside the boat on the ground?
 

alldodge

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I would place it in front of the motor but not close enough for the line to get caught by the motor running. Its outside so there should not be an issue with fumes. cover the line coming out of the can and just leave the vent open. The fuel pump cannot lift fuel very much

If you had an outboard squeeze bulb you could self prime
 

dwelleyc1

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Interesting development. I don't have the 3/8" fuel hose to make up the connection to the fuel pump right now, so I am heading out to the hardware store shortly.

In the meantime, I thought I would try your idea of priming the pumps with the bleed off valve open on the high side fuel rail. I did this two times (key ON, pumps prime, then key OFF) and a bunch of air bubbles came out, then the pressure went up to about 58psi. This is the first time I have registered anything on the high side fuel rail.

I tried to prime it a couple of more times because there were still air bubbles coming out and the pressure dropped back to 0psi, even with the bleed off valve closed. Also, the high pressure fuel pump felt warm to the touch after doing this process.

Any thoughts on what that points to? Would that be the fuel pump allowing air into the system or perhaps a bad connection at a hose fitting?
 

alldodge

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Sounds to me like a pump problem. The pressure should stay up for at least a minute and never just drop right back down. Could also be the regulator bleeding off to fast, but would think if this was the case it would not let it build to 50
 

Lou C

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reading this with great interest...it sounds like the pumps get 12V but then go to zero, what would be causing them to lose current?
oh for the days when our fuel delivery problems could be solved with this:

photo318094.jpg
 

alldodge

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it sounds like the pumps get 12V but then go to zero, what would be causing them to lose current?

Its an EFI motor, power is on for couple seconds then back off before motor is cranked
 

Lou C

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and in this case I guess its not coming back on when it should when the engine is cranked...Crank Position sensor?
 

dwelleyc1

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After further testing w/ an external tank and line right to the fuel filter input, the pumps will still not build any pressure on the high pressure rail (or low pressure for that matter). I was only able to get the 58psi to show up that one time this morning with the normal fuel hookup, but as soon as I bled the pressure off, it did not return.

I am going to call the shop that installed the fuel pump last winter for warranty checks. I still find it hard to believe that I had 2 bad pumps, more likely the bad pumps are symptoms of another issue. Any additional thoughts all?

I appreciate all of the advice and help that has been given so far.
 

muc

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If the fuel pumps are bad. Good news is Volvo Penta parts have a one year warranty, two years parts and labor if installed by a dealer
Bad news is, it seems that your dealer didn't check for supply side problems (covered in the service manual) before replacing them last time.
That is just a guess on my part.

I've worked at a couple of dealers that paid the techs on commission, seen a lot of fuel pumps replaced with the only troubleshoot done being a pressure test.
Avoid boat shops that pay their techs on commission, there is too much pressure to cut corners. Good shops are out there, trouble is they usually have a higher labor rate and longer wait times.

Best shop I worked for, hourly rate was pretty much 40% higher than ANYBODY else in our market. Marine Max was the closest at 30% under us. And we only worked on customers boats that they had purchased from us.
Worst shop I worked for. Hourly rate was near the lowest in the area and we worked on anything.

Funny thing was. On most similar jobs, the final bill was about the same. But the customer got much more "value" at the expensive place.
Chose your service provider based on value not price.
 

dwelleyc1

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This is the VP replacement, from what I understand. I believe they are Carter? They are warrantied by the shop that installed them for a year so if that is the real problem I am confident they will cover it, but I have the concern that Muc raised, they didn't dig far enough into the issue and fixed a symptom rather than the issue.

I will ask that they do a deep dive into the supply side when I take it back. If I can get the regulator in before they can take it in to look at it I will replace that myself and see how it acts.

Do you think a regulator could cause all of the things I have been seeing?
 

alldodge

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Don't know about all, but if the Reg is unable to build pressure then it will cause low pressure, but so will a bad pump
 

dwelleyc1

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If they were new VP pumps, then they are not the issue. If they were aftermarket then maybe.

Your fuel system is pretty simple if installed correctly. LP pump, to HP pump, to fuel rail, to regulator and back to LP side of pump assembly. So if pumps are good, then only thing left is the regulator

https://www.volvopentashop.com/epc/...asolineEngines/7746180/7746180_23/7746180_011

I noticed none of these regulators show the E clip fix. My existing regulator does not have the E clip fix. Shouldn't the new parts come with the VP fix that was issued?
 

dwelleyc1

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While I wait for the shop to admit my boat for troubleshooting (2 weeks from now for a warranty issue), I was still looking into the fuel supply of my boat. I have a perko gas cap like the one below. There is one vent leaving the fuel tank going up to the smaller fitting on this cap. I have searched far and wide on the web and have not been able to locate a description of how the fuel system vents (or allows fuel to move while the pump is running) while the gas cap is tightly screwed on. Does anyone know? I only have the two lines running from my fuel tank, they both go to this cap for fill and venting, but nowhere else that I can see.

2820540C.jpg
 
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