200mv on the black/yellow wire to the power pack. Help please!!

Jquest

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ok...for a while now I was having problems not being able to get above 5k with my boat. Searching and searching and searching... I finally came across a thread by Joe Reeves. NO VOLTAGE on the black and yellow wire leading to the PP in either the "on" or "off" position. In the "off" position I get no voltage (0 volts). But when I put it in the "on" position ..I get "200 mv" coming in. I believe that is my problem and why the revs are not reaching my desired WOT level. <br />I went to the ignition swith and disconnected the Black/yellow wire. Nothing. Still coming through. I disconnect the shift interupt switch...still coming through. I disconnected the deutch connector under the plastic cover (on the port head). IT stopped coming. It now stops at that connector. So...from that connector leading to somewhere...200mv is sneaking in...in the "on" position of the ignition switch. Only thing I can think of....is that cable is getting pinched or something ,somewhere?<br /><br />oh....I also checked my PP while the boat was idling.<br />I was able to finally pick up a CDI DVA adapter on EBay. Got it for 35 bucks from a retired mech. not bad!! I read close to 300volts on both sides of the wiring coming into the PP and 19 in the middle. So either my PP has been damaged or the little voltage sneaking in is causing the RFI rev limiting circuit to kick in?
 

phatmanmike

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Re: 200mv on the black/yellow wire to the power pack. Help please!!

i was under the impretion that the black/yellow wire was for killing the motor....
 

Jquest

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Re: 200mv on the black/yellow wire to the power pack. Help please!!

http://forums.iboats.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=28;t=038342#000007 <br /><br />Following the wire right to the deutch connector before the ignition switch....the voltage was still there. After pluging and unpluging the wires and connector...it looks like the connector has some type of voltage leak. IT doesn't help that the 12V wire is right next to the black/yellow wire. <br />Do you guys think I should spend the money and get a new connector(female leading to ignition switch) or splice and remove the switch? One thing less to worry about. I figure some good connection with soldered connectors will be better than that switch in the way.
 

OBJ

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Re: 200mv on the black/yellow wire to the power pack. Help please!!

If there is any type of carbon in the connector, that could be the source of the voltage. Carbon conducts. If you know how, take the deutch connector apart. Clean the pins and connect them back together out of the connector and then take your voltage readings again.
 

Jquest

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Re: 200mv on the black/yellow wire to the power pack. Help please!!

Originally posted by OBJ:<br /> If there is any type of carbon in the connector, that could be the source of the voltage. Carbon conducts. If you know how, take the deutch connector apart. Clean the pins and connect them back together out of the connector and then take your voltage readings again.
Thanks for the suggestion OBJ. What I'm going to do is....I'm going to eliminate that deutch connector. I don't like those tiny little pins for the voltage that goes through there. I'm also going to get a separate kill switch and wire up the two wires that form the "kill circuit" My cousin has a boat with a Yami and I like their setup. THey keep that circuit away from the voltage switch in a separate switch. Spending 20 bucks to buy another switch is better than going through power packs. :)
 

OBJ

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Re: 200mv on the black/yellow wire to the power pack. Help please!!

Well let us know how you make out and if that solves the problem..... :)
 

Jquest

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Re: 200mv on the black/yellow wire to the power pack. Help please!!

Will do Pilgrim. :D
 

bansheetaz

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Re: 200mv on the black/yellow wire to the power pack. Help please!!

what do you mean by deutch connector? is it the big pink main connector for the engine?
 

seahorse5

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Re: 200mv on the black/yellow wire to the power pack. Help please!!

Was there any clear silicone (dialectric) grease on the end and rubber seal of the 6 pin Deutch connector? <br /><br />When the motor is installed, the connector itself and underneath the orange caps should be covered with the grease. As you know, the 300+ volts on the black/yellow wire can arc inside a dry connector and cause a carbon track which can either leak to ground causing weak ignition or no ignition. It could also carbon track to the B+ wire and possibly cause a voltage leak like you are measuring.
 

Jquest

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Re: 200mv on the black/yellow wire to the power pack. Help please!!

All the connectors were full of dialectric grease. The problem was.....where the deutch connector was. They really kinked the cable( U turns on both direction/sides really close to the plug) and put pressure on it. I could take the cable apart like OBJ says, but I don't want to take a chance on it shorting out/conducting voltage again. PP's are way toooo expensive. I'm just going to isolate that circuit. I feel much better doing that. :) I believe you and OBJ are correct about the carbon in the connector though.
 

Jquest

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Re: 200mv on the black/yellow wire to the power pack. Help please!!

IF the Power pack turns out to be bad, do to the voltage coming in...which one do you guys recommend. Sierra or OMC?
 

seahorse5

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Re: 200mv on the black/yellow wire to the power pack. Help please!!

One thing bugs me, if you see 200mv at the black/yellow with the motor not running, wouldn't the 300+ volts from the pack travel back thru the black/yellow circuit and affect the 12 volt system and make it close to 300 volts when the motor IS running? If a small voltage is "leaking in", what would keep 300 volts from "leaking out".<br /><br />For a quick check, remove the connector with the black/yellow wire from the top port side of the pack, after your run the motor to warm it up. Run the boat and see if there is any difference. Remember that you cannot turn the motor off with the keyswitch while things are disconnected. Use the "choke" to kill the motor while it is in gear.<br /><br />You can also use a timing lite on each cylinder to see if there is any erratic movement or "double firing" of the pack. The timing wheel is already marked for each cylinder and can be seen by removing the round cap on the top engine cover.
 

Jquest

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Re: 200mv on the black/yellow wire to the power pack. Help please!!

I think you might have something confused Seahorse. Or maybe I didn't explain something right. Ok....in the ignition switch. I have the MWS harness. YOu have the ground post(position 6/m)at 10 o'clock. You have the power post (position 1/B) 12 o'clock and you have<br />the other post (position 2/B) at 2 o'clock. This is the one that feeds the Black/yellow wire the ground for the "kill/engine off". When the ignition switch is in the off position..I get 0 volts at position 2(reason being..it's making with position 6). When I turn the ignition in the "on" position...I start to get a bleed through and I'm picking up voltage on the number 2 pole. The only way it goes away is....if I unplug and plug and play with the deutch connector right before it. <br />Reading the manual...the black/yellow is supposed to be open with no voltage. IN the off position...the circuit(post 6 and 2)is making. When you connect the kill switch and the ignition is turned to the "on" position...a normally closed circuit is "opened" in the switch. Plugged yanked...circuit closes(grounded)...power pack turns off.<br />I've looked my manual and I see the way they use the switch before the incorporation of the kill switch on the ignition switch. So that is what I'm gonna do. REmove the deutch switch. Crimp and solder my connectors and separate the kill circuit from the ignition switch. I think those deutch switches are crap. Just one more thing that can go wrong. I believe the "KISS" method. :) <br />The 300 volts I mention were on the other side(other connector) of the power pack ,where you have the voltage for the port(B/Y to B)side, power coil(OR/BL to OR) and starboard (BR/BL to BR/WH) side of the Power pack. I checked the readings there and they fell within the parameters of operation. I'm hoping that being eliminating that voltage(200mv bleed)..the power pack will return to normal operation. From what I've read...having the voltage might cause the RFI noise to active and choke the pack at 4900rpm. If it still does it after I correct the circuit...then a breakdown has occured inside the pack and it's time for a new one.
 

OBJ

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Re: 200mv on the black/yellow wire to the power pack. Help please!!

I see your point seahorse but I would think it depends on pin placement in the deutch connector. If I recall right....had a no spark problem last summer on a 150 which ended up as arcing in the connector at the dash....the black/yellow pin is right next to the black wire pin. Most of the connector had dialetric grease except between the two pins. <br /><br />I'm trying to say something here but it ain't coming out right.....LOL! Yes, you should see pack voltage when the engine is running but maybe not see it in the 12V system cause of pin placement in the connector......does that sound right......?
 

Jquest

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Re: 200mv on the black/yellow wire to the power pack. Help please!!

Originally posted by seahorse:<br /> <br />You can also use a timing lite on each cylinder to see if there is any erratic movement or "double firing" of the pack. The timing wheel is already marked for each cylinder and can be seen by removing the round cap on the top engine cover.
Man...don't even get me started. I took my boat to a mech last week cause I had gotten a Christmas bonus and I wanted them check out the boat. They found a bad temp switch in the port head and fixed my shifting - worn bushing causing it harder to shift.They also removed some of the jets and saw that everything was ok in the carbs. Anyway...I told them about everything and he told me they had checked all the plugs and stuff and it was firing correctly on all six. I even authorized them for a sea trail so they would see the problem. Freaking guy comes back and tells me that I should change prop and that the engine was working according for factory specs as far as rpms(between 5k and 5500) were concerned. I asked them if they measured and ohm out any other things and he told me as long as all six were firing with good spark...everything looked fine. I didn't even want to argue with the guy cause I knew I had made a mistake taking it to those people. <br />Since they eliminated the carbs and the firing system...I knew that the problem had to be electronics then. That is what my job is. :D So...I searched ( praise the guys for fixing the engine:D)and searched and searched and finally ran across JOe's post about no power and the ignition switch. Sure enough...BAM!! I get voltage there. Now it makes sense why the boat ran right, but didn't get the output it's supposed to have. AFter I fix the switch today...I'll probably take it out tomorrow. Way too windy in S. Fla today. Weather people said tomorrow was going to be nicer. <br />Well..that's my story...I'm sticking to it. ;)
 

Jquest

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Re: 200mv on the black/yellow wire to the power pack. Help please!!

Originally posted by OBJ:<br /> Yes, you should see pack voltage when the engine is running but maybe not see it in the 12V system cause of pin placement in the connector......does that sound right......?
I"m not trying to imply anything here guys, but remember... the operating wires are on one side of the pack(port) and the high voltage connection is on the other side of the pack(starboard). If both connectors have grease and are properly plugged in...I can't see how that high voltage could sneak/arc to the other side. But then again...you guys are the pros. :)
 

Joe Reeves

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Re: 200mv on the black/yellow wire to the power pack. Help please!!

Possibly I'm missing something in all of the above as I have a problem in reading posts that are all one paragraph which measure 3 or 6 inches in height or so, especially when they get into service manual specifics such as pin A to pin C etc etc. Probably just me (age) but I prefer the KISS method.<br /><br />That said..... Jquest, you say that your engine will not exceed 5000 rpm. Has it ever exceeded 5000 rpm on this same boat, and if so, has there been any repairs, improvements, additions made to the boat or engine between that 5000+ rpm time and now?<br /><br />If it's listed above, I've overlooked it. What is this engine (make, hp, year), and what is the boat make and length. Has the boat been trailered or does it sit in the water constantly which if being berthed, marine life could gather on the hull which would greatly affect the rig's performance.<br /><br />Hopefully you've had the timing checked, and also checked to see that the timer base under the flywheel isn't sticking. I'll assume that your mechanics have correctly saw to it that the compression and spark is as it should be.<br /><br />Compression = 100+psi and even on all cylinders. Spark = Jumps a 7/16" gap with a strong blue lightning like flame (SNAP!).<br /><br />Now.... The Black/Yellow wire (Yes Mike, that's the kill wire). The voltage measurement I speak of is to be taken with the Engine Not Running. Some of what I read above could be construed as the Engine Was Running on various tests.<br /><br />With the Engine Not Runing, key set to OFF, remove the black/yellow wire from the powerpack(s). Connect a voltmeter, set to it lowest reading, between the ENGINE WIRING HARNESS black/yellow wire and ground (Not at the powerpack!). There should be no reading.<br /><br />Turn the key to the ON position, Engine Not Running. There should still be no voltage reading.<br /><br />In either of the above instances, if a voltage reading is present, disconnect the large RED electrical plug at the engine. If the voltage reading persists, then obviously the problem is with the engine wiring harness.<br /><br />If, on the other hand, the voltage reading ceases to exist when the RED plug is disconnected, the problem (voltage bleed) would be in either the instrument cable or the ignition switch.<br /><br />Check the ignition switch by plugging the RED plug back together, then removing the black/yellow wire from the ignition switch. If the voltage ceases to exist, the switch is faulty. If the voltage persists, the instrument cable is faulty.<br /><br />Note that all of the above IS NOT to check for a rpm problem but rather a test designed to find why powerpacks continue to fail, one after another within a short period of time on the same engine. Any amount of DC voltage being applied to the black/yellow wire will destroy the powerpack.<br /><br />Pertaining to whatever voltage DC or AC which might be applied to the black/yellow wire At The Powerpack when the Engine Is Running, I have no idea, but it will be there and it is usually found to be quite shocking (grin).
 

Jquest

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Re: 200mv on the black/yellow wire to the power pack. Help please!!

Originally posted by Joe Reeves:<br /> Possibly I'm missing something in all of the above as I have a problem in reading posts that are all one paragraph which measure 3 or 6 inches in height or so, especially when they get into service manual specifics such as pin A to pin C etc etc. Probably just me (age) but I prefer the KISS method.<br /><br />That said..... Jquest, you say that your engine will not exceed 5000 rpm. Has it ever exceeded 5000 rpm on this same boat, and if so, has there been any repairs, improvements, additions made to the boat or engine between that 5000+ rpm time and now?<br />
Here's some history on the rpm thing.<br /> http://forums.iboats.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=28;t=035272 <br />I finally did take to the mech. And like stated above...he did find something wrong ,but they didn't do any voltage or continuity checks. They told me everything was fine that I needed a 15x17 ,but as you see in the other thread...I was running an undersized prop and still only getting 5k. I've just about finished wiring it up. Now that I've removed the deutch connector...the voltage is gone, but I'm not taking anymore chances...I'm isolating that circuit away from the switch. THe worst that now can happen is a constant ground to that wire. I'll gladly buy another 20 dollar switch than having to get a new Power pack.<br /> :(
 

Jquest

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Re: 200mv on the black/yellow wire to the power pack. Help please!!

ok...finished the job. I still get around 20mv. That's gotta be noise from somewhere. I tested it with 2 different meters (1 fluke and 1 craftsman).I can't see how I can get no mv unless I run a sheilded cable straight to the Power pack. One other thing I did... was run a cable through the outside of the boat, from the connector all the way to the back ,to the deutch connector that leads to the PP. Still got some mv's. LIke I said...I think that is noise from the outside. Or...the PP is toast and it's leaking the voltage that I'm detecting. Now that I've re-wired that switch...I'm gonna take my boat out tomorrow and see how it runs. I guess I'll take it from there. I have a spare PP, but I don't want to throw in unless I eliminate things, one by one.
 

seahorse5

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Re: 200mv on the black/yellow wire to the power pack. Help please!!

Joe Reeves,<br /><br />JQuest has a '96 or later 60 degree motor with the Deutch 6 pin connecors instead of the red round "cannon" plug according to his description of the engine wiring.<br /><br /> To JQuest,<br /><br />That black/yellow "kill" wire carries over 300 volts along it's length to the key switch whenever the motor is running. It is the voltage from the capacitor inside the CDI ignition. It has to be carefully insulated and can definitely get your attention if you are shocked by it. When you turn the key to OFF, the 300V gets grounded to the black wire on the switch, which is a ground. With the voltage shorted to ground, there is none for ignition and the motor shuts off.<br /><br />That 300+ volts is the reason that is is easy to have an arc that will cause a carbon track inside a dry connector. Also if there is any voltage leakage through faulty insulation or a bad connection, that is less voltage available for the ignition system and can cause poor running.<br /><br />Let's get back to basics. You have 2 different 6-pin Deutch connectors, one by the key switch and one at the engine. Each one is connected to each end of the boat wiring harness.<br /><br />Deutch connectors are super reliable and waterproof to about 3' when used with dialectric grease.<br /><br />Do this test. Disconnect the port powerpack connector from the pack. Turn the key on and see if there is your 200mv between the black/yellow wire on the connector and ground. If so, remove the black/yellow wire from the keyswitch and check for voltage again at the pack connector. If there is NO voltage, then you have internal leakage in your key switch. You can test that by putting the voltmeter on the bare terminal(where the b/y wire was) on the switch and see the voltage.<br /><br /> If there still is voltage at the PP connector b/y wire, then you have problems inside the boat harness or the motor harness and will have to trace it down.<br /><br />Joe is correct that you are fixating on the slight amount of voltage and that probably is not your low rpm problem.<br /><br />You did not say if you checked timing on each cylinder. It might be a good idea if you yourself do a compression check and post the numbers here. Also remove the air box and make sure all 6 throttle plates fully open at the same time. Quite often, one of the lower throttle shaft clamps come loose and that keeps one throttle plate from opening up along with the others. That would also gives a low rpm reading at WOT.<br /><br />Good luck.
 
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