2012 VP 300 C-A Exhaust manifolds getting too hot - DTC 441 & 442

[Donald0039]

“The DTC was pretty much the same“
Do you mean like only one number off?
What did the four exhaust temp senders read?

By saying the DTC was pretty much the same I mean the DTC was a 441 or 442 and the only data that was different from the prior tests was the engine coolant was 140F vs 86F in prev tests. I had the data on Diacom and brought my laptop home to figure a way to save the DTC in such a way that I could post it here. Unfortunately something went wrong and the DTC got deleted from Diacom.

But there were no exhaust risers temp readings in the DTC. I have never seen those in the DTC freeze frame data. However my IR temp gun showed the same temp for the exhaust manifold as in the DTC about 220F. But the exhaust risers temp was only 120F according to my IR temp gun.

From your description of the flow of the closed cooling system there is pretty much a straight path from the block to the exhaust manifolds. The block and the exhaust manifold should be roughly the same temperature. But the exhaust manifold was 220F and the engine coolant displayed was 140F.

Some air in the system still? How to bleed it?

I need to order more Volvo Penta VCS coolant!!

 

[Lou C]

I’m thinking that Volvo must have a procedure on how to fill the full closed cooling system if you are installing a new engine let’s say so as to avoid air pockets. That can definitely cause hot spots

 

[Donald0039]

I’m thinking that Volvo must have a procedure on how to fill the full closed cooling system if you are installing a new engine let’s say so as to avoid air pockets. That can definitely cause hot spots

I agree. How do I find that out??

 

[Lou C]

VP Shop manual?

 

[Donald0039]

VP Shop manual?

For this engine the VP website indicates "printed - dealer only".

 

[Lou C]

Well I’d head over to a dealer and after buying some maintenance parts see if they’ll share the super secret Volvo procedure with you lol. I used to buy parts for my OMC from my mechanics (since retired) instead of on line because:
Wanted to give local guys the business
They were nice about giving fee advice above & beyond what I had in the factory shop manual.
Not selling shop manuals to owners is BS. That alone would stop me from buying anything from them in the future. I have a digital copy of the factory shop manual for my 2007 Grand Cherokee. It’s 7,800 pages long. Volvos not building some super top secret military water craft here. What nonsense!
So what happens to independent shops?
Not allowed?
Yet another way to increase profits for their dealers?
You can get workshop manuals for modern outboards by the way.

 

[Donald0039]

So there are no obvious coolant leaks. No coolant in bilge. Possibly previous owner was careless about maintenance?

What if there is a leak in the heat exchanger and the coolant is slowly being pushed into the raw water side and out the exhaust? Except for the coolant level dropping how would I know?

Do heat exchangers get repaired or just replaced?

 

[Lou C]

But there was a leak as I pointed out on the exhaust manifold
H/Es can be pressure tested that info would be in the “super top secret dealer only shop manual”.

 

[Donald0039]

But there was a leak as I pointed out on the exhaust manifold
H/Es can be pressure tested that info would be in the “super top secret dealer only shop manual”.

That leak you pointed out is in the exhaust elbow and most likely raw water. I would see that in the bilge. Yes I need to look into that. I am looking for a much larger leak of coolant.

I am assuming heat exchangers are like exhaust elbows and need replacement every so many years when used in salt water.

 

[Lou C]

They are like radiators and corrosion can happen on the raw water side. If you can find a way to plug the input & output of the closed side you could use a radiator tester to see if it holds pressure. But then you have to drain the whole system etc.
Maybe better idea, can you have antifreeze tested to see if sodium from salt water shows up in it?
I never had closed cooling on this engine so I can’t say how long they last. I can say after about 15 years the cyl heads may need replacement due to corrosion. So I guess it’s a trade off of the cost of the closed cooling vs having to do engine work.

 

[Donald0039]

They are like radiators and corrosion can happen on the raw water side. If you can find a way to plug the input & output of the closed side you could use a radiator tester to see if it holds pressure. But then you have to drain the whole system etc.
Maybe better idea, can you have antifreeze tested to see if sodium from salt water shows up in it?

I was thinking of testing the coolant. But which system would be at the higher pressure? I am thinking the closed system with coolant. I am looking for a leak where a gallon or two of coolant could disappear.

 

[Lou C]

Yes the coolant side is probably like 15 psi raw water side is low pressure

 

[muc]

For this engine the VP website indicates "printed - dealer only".

Not sure where you get this info. If you go to the link I posted earlier and enter your serial number. This is what you should see.

Here you can search for operator manuals and other product related information for your Volvo Penta product. You can download a free digital version or purchase printed paper copies. Please note that some publications, e.g., workshop manuals, are only available for purchase in print.

(Only available in printed version)

Then if you look to the right. You will see BUY and you click on the little shopping cart.

Not that it will help you much in this situation. Your engine was made during a period of fast changes and I don't see much in the workshop manuals that cover your cooling system. Might be something in the manual for the 6.0L because that's the closest I've seen to what you have. Will try to look when I have time.

Yes you should test the system for leaking. This won't be covered in a Volvo manual because it's considered "common knowledge". Techs learn this stuff in trade school or from another tech on the job.

I don't have any experience with your exact cooling system. But looking at parts reference page 54161345
you will see #12 a small hose that goes from the T to the coolant bottle. That hose should bleed air out of the system, maybe it's plugged?

With Diacom the least useful (well maybe not least) screen is the DTC screen. It's only used to point you in the right direction. If you reread my posts you will see what screen I asked you to look at.

Out of time for now, will try to post more when I can.

 

[Donald0039]

Agree that Ref # 54161345 + Ref # 54161344 look to be correct for your engine.
You don't have a TCD or PCD. I've never worked on one of this style freshwater cooled engines. It looks close to the 6.0L, but that engine had a vertical heat exchanger.
Low anti-freeze sure would cause the issues you're having.
Volvo VCS is an organic additive technology (oat) based coolant and I've been told OAT doesn't like being exposed to air. If you haven't changed your coolant in the last few years, I would take this opportunity to do it now. A drain and flush would be a good idea.
That leak you see is lake water, Best do a pressure test to see why and where you're loosing coolant.

Coolant flow in the full closed cooling system is out of the circulation pump, into the engine block, through the heads, and into the lower intake manifold. Coolant then flows out of the intake manifold into a ‘T’ that feeds into the bottom of each exhaust manifold. Coolant then flows through the exhaust manifold and out where the manifold thermostats used to be located through a new fitting into another ‘T’ and then back to the engine thermostat housing at the entrance to the heat exchanger. There are no exhaust manifold thermostats. The thermostat housing contains a bypass from the intake manifold to the circulation pump. When the thermostat opens, the bypass is blocked off and all coolant flow is then directed into the heat exchanger and back to the circulation pump. Exhaust manifold temperature is controlled by the engine thermostat. A gasket prevents flow between the manifold and the elbow. When removing the elbow, it is necessary to drain the coolant in the manifold first.

Looking at your post and the the cooling system diagram on the VP website. What would cause the engine to not overheat but the exhaust manifold to overheat. And the exhaust elbows to be normal temp? What would happen if the closed system was filled with coolant but not moving around? Would the engine block heat up slower than the exhaust manifold?

I do need to go back to the boat and see if the expansion tank is still filled. If not then was their air in the system still or did some leave the closed cooling system via the heat exchanger.

The net is if coolant was flowing around the closed system the engine block and exhaust manifold would be the same temp and they are definitely not.

 

[Donald0039]

I did register the engine and so any recall notices should be sent to me. I went to the Volvo Penta website to order some manuals but when I click on the cart icon I get a web page not found error. Guess I will ask the dealer. I'd like to pressure the closed cooling system but unsure of what cap adapter I need. Maybe buy a radiator test kit with the most adapters on Amazon and hope one of the adapters will fit.

I looked through the Diacom for a "O2 Feedback Monitor". Did not see it. Maybe under a different name?

Guess I need to order more VP VCS,coolant. My 3 gallons is almost gone.

 

[Donald0039]

Tried to get the proper adapter cap for the cooling system expansion tank from a VP dealer but they said they could not get it. So I ordered a cooling system pressure test kit from Amazon with an assortment of adapter caps. Hopefully one will fit.

Still trying to figure what could be wrong to allow the engine block at 140F and the exhaust manifold at 220F when they are both cooled by the same coolant flow. Seems there are only two possible explanations. 1) the closed cooling system is not flowing coolant 2) the closed cooling system is not filled with coolant or has air in the system or lost a lot of coolant after I added 2.5 gallons of coolant. If that is the case I would suspect a leak in the heat exchanger.

 

[muc]

Not sure if the kit will have a cap to match, my tester is so old it's from back when steel caps came in two sizes. I have made a few caps over the years by gutting a new cap and screwing in an adapter. But any pressure tester will work, for a number of years I used my gearcase pressure tester and would just add a hardware store T and a couple of pieces of hose.
When you pressure test, I recommend you pull the ends of the heat exchanger and let the sea water drain out. Also drain the 2 elbows and leave the plugs out. Now pressure test while the engine is still full of coolant and see if coolant comes out of those drains or the heat exchanger. The joint between the elbow and riser, and the heat exchanger are the only places I can think of that coolant is near the sea water. If you don't find a leak, you will have to completely drain all the coolant and pressure test the system empty. Some leaks will only show up as air leaks due the expansion and contraction of a running engine.
Possible you have a bad circulation pump. There were some problems with a few back then. Read this S.B. for more info.

https://holesbaymarine.co.uk/catalog/media/F53DEL3GOJSW4Y3INVQXE2LOMUXW2ZLENFQS6YTNMUXUOQKZIRBVQQSRI5JE6RCFJVBFER2OJ5CUWVCTG5DUCMSRFZYGIZQ

Also possible you aren't running the engine fast enough when filling. Are you running the engine above idle while filling it?

Out of time --- more when I can.

 

[Donald0039]

Not sure if the kit will have a cap to match, my tester is so old it's from back when steel caps came in two sizes. I have made a few caps over the years by gutting a new cap and screwing in an adapter. But any pressure tester will work, for a number of years I used my gearcase pressure tester and would just add a hardware store T and a couple of pieces of hose.
When you pressure test, I recommend you pull the ends of the heat exchanger and let the sea water drain out. Also drain the 2 elbows and leave the plugs out. Now pressure test while the engine is still full of coolant and see if coolant comes out of those drains or the heat exchanger. The joint between the elbow and riser, and the heat exchanger are the only places I can think of that coolant is near the sea water. If you don't find a leak, you will have to completely drain all the coolant and pressure test the system empty. Some leaks will only show up as air leaks due the expansion and contraction of a running engine.
Possible you have a bad circulation pump. There were some problems with a few back then. Read this S.B. for more info.

https://holesbaymarine.co.uk/catalog/media/F53DEL3GOJSW4Y3INVQXE2LOMUXW2ZLENFQS6YTNMUXUOQKZIRBVQQSRI5JE6RCFJVBFER2OJ5CUWVCTG5DUCMSRFZYGIZQ

Also possible you aren't running the engine fast enough when filling. Are you running the engine above idle while filling it?

Out of time --- more when I can.

Ok I will try and drain the sea water before doing a pressure test.

I did not add coolant while the engine was running rather added coolant to the FULL line then ran engine for two minutes. Added more coolant. Ran by engine for another two minutes and added more coolant. Then started engine and watched coolant level. When it started to rise to top of expansion tank I screwed on by the cap.

I would assume the closed cooling system being down 2.5 gallons has got to be associated with the problem. In Sept 2020 I took the boat out for a sea trial and it ran fine around a bay in RI going 25 or 30 MPH. It was not run in 2021 as waiting for outdrive parts all summer. In 2022 it has only been test run on a work rack or in the water tied to a dock. So it ran in 2020 just fine but now has lost a lot of coolant and overheats.

 

[Lou C]

I would try using one of these, they work well on systems that are hard to bleed, but even so I'd be concerned about air being trapped on the top end of those manifolds. Must be a way to bleed that out. Here I'm using it on my 2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee with the 5.7 Hemi.

 

[muc]

Ok I will try and drain the sea water before doing a pressure test.

I did not add coolant while the engine was running rather added coolant to the FULL line then ran engine for two minutes. Added more coolant. Ran by engine for another two minutes and added more coolant. Then started engine and watched coolant level. When it started to rise to top of expansion tank I screwed on by the cap.

I would assume the closed cooling system being down 2.5 gallons has got to be associated with the problem. In Sept 2020 I took the boat out for a sea trial and it ran fine around a bay in RI going 25 or 30 MPH. It was not run in 2021 as waiting for outdrive parts all summer. In 2022 it has only been test run on a work rack or in the water tied to a dock. So it ran in 2020 just fine but now has lost a lot of coolant and overheats.

When filling the cooling system, it can be tough to get all the air out. Generally speaking you want the RPMs up to about 1500. Some engines can be really hard. Back in the late 90s/early 2000s there were some "blue" 5.7L engines that the factory would send us special thermostats with some holes drilled in them to try and help get the air out, still had problems and the factory wanted me to run the engine at 4000 RPMs while filling! No way I'm standing next to a engine running that fast with no load! That's how people get hurt.

Bought one of these and never had a air problem again.

Not this exact brand, but looks pretty close.