262 Vortec V6 timing issues, sorry a bit long

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Cameron351

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Re: 262 Vortec V6 timing issues, sorry a bit long

Wow, that's a nice fresh idea that could explain alot. When I pulled the plugs and looked at them they appeared to be normal length to me maybe like 3/4" worth of thread. The looked the same length as all the other small blocks pulgs I have seen. What is the correct part number for the plugs? I will pull them and check it out.

Great idea. I really feel like I am on some thin ice when I think mercruiser screwed up all thoses modules over the years. It really makes you step back and think long and hard about your next move.
 

redjmp

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Re: 262 Vortec V6 timing issues, sorry a bit long

I have read on other forums where guys easily get 280hp out of their carbed 4.3L's with just a little tweaking.

There is no doubt that mercruiser sacrifices performance/economy for cheaper production costs and reliabililty.

They design their motors to be able to run from arctic to tropical waters and don't care if they use more gas as long as the company has the fewest warranty claims and therefore makes the most money.
 

John_S

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Re: 262 Vortec V6 timing issues, sorry a bit long

I have read on other forums where guys easily get 280hp out of their carbed 4.3L's with just a little tweaking.

That's SOME tweaking! 60-70hp without any parts? I guess we don't need those 350 vortec/4brls that are only 280hp at prop. Really? Mercruser and Volvo didn't leave that kind of hp on the table, just to make them reliable.

I'd bet you are talking about cars, but would appreciate a few links for reading, anyway.
 

Aloysius

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Re: 262 Vortec V6 timing issues, sorry a bit long

And just HOW are they measuring this phenomenal increase? Oops, my BS indicator meter just went off........
 

redjmp

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Re: 262 Vortec V6 timing issues, sorry a bit long

And just HOW are they measuring this phenomenal increase? Oops, my BS indicator meter just went off........

Geez I remember the days when F1 motors were pulling 1200hp out of less than 1.0L.

Anything is possible once you abandon that narrow minded by the mercruiser book or nothing mentality.

It is possible to get 500hp from that mighty little 4.3L and yes mercruiser and volvo left that power on the table in favour of reliability.

Even mercruiser is now getting well over 1 hp per cubic inch on a couple of their newer engines.

Here are the details. Sorry its 279 hp. My bad.....
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/small...pecific/1017737-4-3l-mercruiser-upgrades.html
 

redjmp

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Re: 262 Vortec V6 timing issues, sorry a bit long

That's SOME tweaking! 60-70hp without any parts? I guess we don't need those 350 vortec/4brls that are only 280hp at prop. Really? Mercruser and Volvo didn't leave that kind of hp on the table, just to make them reliable.

I'd bet you are talking about cars, but would appreciate a few links for reading, anyway.

There is a big difference between flywheel/dyno hp and prop hp.
 

whitney

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Re: 262 Vortec V6 timing issues, sorry a bit long

Wow, that's a nice fresh idea that could explain alot. When I pulled the plugs and looked at them they appeared to be normal length to me maybe like 3/4" worth of thread. The looked the same length as all the other small blocks pulgs I have seen. What is the correct part number for the plugs? I will pull them and check it out.

Great idea. I really feel like I am on some thin ice when I think mercruiser screwed up all thoses modules over the years. It really makes you step back and think long and hard about your next move.

My experience is with OMC but here are some good representative pics of early and late plugs from http://www.ebasicpower.com

Early (pre vortec) = NGKBR6FS
NGKBR6FS.jpg


Later (vortec) = NGKBPR6EFS
NGKBPR6EFS.jpg


fyi great NGK part number decoder: http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/docs/tech/partnumberkey.pdf

Again, no idea if this is a problem but it's easy and makes sense to check :)
 

John_S

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Re: 262 Vortec V6 timing issues, sorry a bit long

There is a big difference between flywheel/dyno hp and prop hp.

Well, since we are talking boats, at the prop is more relavent.

I read the thread, and the OP is going through much more than a tweaking, and its not clear if he finished or not. He made no claims to HP.

The comment about HP comes from a poster who didn't provide alot of details, but cam and head work, new ign, are much more that "tweaking". Mentions rev limit, but not advance. Hitting 6500rpms on the water but peak HP at 4900. Hmm.

I did not find anything about tweaking the advance and results, that would pertain to this thread. Did I miss it?

Interesting comments about the iBoats forum: "all the boat sites suck, haha you ain't kidding. i just troll iboats now to **** people off and find humor in their "marine" engineering rationale."
 

Aloysius

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Re: 262 Vortec V6 timing issues, sorry a bit long

"tweaking" and F1 technology are hardly comparable. Tweaking implies nominal modifications. Essentially, adjustments. The new Corvette stuff with titanium parts is hardly "tweaked". In any case, 280 hp out of a 260 cu.in. engine isn't earth shattering.

However, one MAJOR aspect of the F1 high horsepower is the phenomenal RPM's they twist. Same torque, more revs, more horsepower by definition.
 

wca_tim

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Re: 262 Vortec V6 timing issues, sorry a bit long

F1 engines, apple and oranges...

Otherwise, all discussion aside, the bottom line here imho, is how to get the most out of it without tearing it up or spending six months playing with it.

Any engine with a given fuel is going to "like" a little different timing. once you have jetting close, you can tell whwther it is right or not by where the color change on the electrode (the "timing line") is. It should be right at the bend. closer to the plug base, needs less timing, closer to the tip, needs more timing.

1. Look at the plugs - color, is fuel mixture on target. timing mark (might be hard to tell after changing it around a lot..). I'm assuming fuel is right.

2. Fill the tank with the lowest octane fuel you ever plan to run in it.

3. set timing at conservative merc setting, and do a wot run, write down rpms and speed (gps is far better, make sure going same direction if in a river, etc...), once you trim it out for the first run, don't change trim or weight distribution in boat, etc... want every run to be a representative comparison. make sure engine is good and warm on first one too...

4. walk timing out more advanced 2 degrees at a time noting wot rpms and speed each time.

5. when it pings or when speed stops increasing, retard 2 degrees and leave it there.

6. see that idle and accelleration are good with that initial setting. if no, then consider a different module, but I'm betting they will be fine. I'm also betting you wind up with more than 22 and less than 34 total advance...

7. Run the crap out of it for a little bit and check the timing mark on a couple plugs to see that they're where you want them. (at the bend in the electrode...).

8. and finally, enjoy it without worrying about it for a while... :)

Hope this is helpful!


ps. You're going to want rpms and wide open throttle to be right at the peak of max horsepower for the engine. I'm guessing based on the numbers you posted above that you're propped right and that you'll wind up at 4600 to 4800 rpms with the boat loaded lightly...

also, you can tweak a bit more out of any engine, by running a litle cooler thermostat, a little thinned oil (not super thin!), running high octane fuel (allows for more timing advance) and leaning it out as far as possible without getting so lean your exhaust gas temps start going up. The problem is if you set your engine up this way, after a while, something is going to be a little off, or you'll get some crappy fuel, etc... it'll detonate like crazy, burn valves, or maybe even eat itself... even if you don't have a major problem all at once you could seriously shorten its lifetime... and no by the time my previous 4.3 was done, it was not stock and the timing was not more advanced than 22 degrees... Just my two cents.
 

redjmp

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Re: 262 Vortec V6 timing issues, sorry a bit long

"tweaking" and F1 technology are hardly comparable. Tweaking implies nominal modifications. Essentially, adjustments. The new Corvette stuff with titanium parts is hardly "tweaked". In any case, 280 hp out of a 260 cu.in. engine isn't earth shattering.

However, one MAJOR aspect of the F1 high horsepower is the phenomenal RPM's they twist. Same torque, more revs, more horsepower by definition.

OK so "tweaking" was the wrong term. My apologies.
My point was just to concur with an earlier post about mercruiser using off the self parts in order to cut costs at the sacrifice of performance.

But there is a lot of power that can be gotten from that motor.

Here is a recipe for 325hp

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/do-yourself-boating-budget/238098-building-up-vortec-4-3-a.html
 

Cameron351

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Re: 262 Vortec V6 timing issues, sorry a bit long (FIXED)

Re: 262 Vortec V6 timing issues, sorry a bit long (FIXED)

Interesting discussion. I thought I would throw out one easy to check thing: Are you sure you have the right spark plugs? When Chevy went to the Vortec heads, the threaded plug depth got a lot longer than the pre-vortec. The threads on the Vortec-correct plugs are like 2x the length.

I had this problem on my 92 with a 96 block ... mechanic used the old plugs. The affected timing since the flame front was starting from inside a deep hole and would need more timing than spec.

Just an idea I had while reading this thread... $0.02

Whitney, you nailed it! I just went to the boat and pulled a plug and looked into the hole and the threads go way in. I took a small piece of welding rod and bent a hook in the end of it. I put it in the hole and hooked the inside of the chamber and marked the rod at the plug seat area. When I hold it up the the old plug the mark is clear up at the hex section.

I also learned on another site that a true Vortec engine has 8 intake manifold bolts and all other V6's have 12 bolts. This engine has 8 bolts and I suspect that is a good indicator for which plugs it requires.

This is really increadable! I am referring to all you folks and this forum! I was having a real hard time departing from the designed timing spec without a logical reason for doing so. I didn't have an answer other than I knew the engine runs better with more timing. The last mechanic that worked on this boat said the engine was just old and that is all you are going to get out of it. That's a crappy answer; old doesn't mean anything when it come to performance. Worn, cracked, streched, loose, leaking, fatiuged, ect. will give you problems; old will not.

What a crazy problem. I knew the Mercuiser engineers were correct or at least pretty close or Volvo would have sold the same engine claiming more power. When you have a competitor you can't leave too much horse power on the table for reliability because the other company will claim it. With this in the back of my mind; I am still trying to figure out why it runs so much better at 34 deg total timing with no signes of detonation.

I love this forum, I love all of you, I love the world, Life is freaken good!!!!

Thank you for all the great discussion on this subject and a special thanks to Whitney for the key piece of information.

Cameron
 

John_S

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Re: 262 Vortec V6 timing issues, sorry a bit long

Let us know how it runs once you get the right plugs.
 

Cameron351

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Re: 262 Vortec V6 timing issues, sorry a bit long

You bet I will. This has to be the answer; it makes total sense.
 

Tail_Gunner

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Re: 262 Vortec V6 timing issues, sorry a bit long

"tweaking" and F1 technology are hardly comparable. Tweaking implies nominal modifications. Essentially, adjustments. The new Corvette stuff with titanium parts is hardly "tweaked". In any case, 280 hp out of a 260 cu.in. engine isn't earth shattering.

However, one MAJOR aspect of the F1 high horsepower is the phenomenal RPM's they twist. Same torque, more revs, more horsepower by definition.


Ummm unless your the one paying for it....:D That can be shattering...:eek: taking a 4.3 to 280 that is
 

redjmp

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Re: 262 Vortec V6 timing issues, sorry a bit long

Ummm unless your the one paying for it....:D That can be shattering...:eek: taking a 4.3 to 280 that is

GM used that motor in their Typhoon trucks which were rated at 300 hp and 400 lbs torque. What reason do you have for making that statement?
Have you built one that shattered on you? Do you know someone that did?
 

Tail_Gunner

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Re: 262 Vortec V6 timing issues, sorry a bit long

GM used that motor in their Typhoon trucks which were rated at 300 hp and 400 lbs torque. What reason do you have for making that statement?
Have you built one that shattered on you? Do you know someone that did?


Yes i am in the middle of one now...cam...valve train... new gearing..mefi tuning the whole gammit. Calm down..Lets see 2000 for the charger...1000 for the tune. (Only a few tune mefi's) new cam to support the charger....300.

That 3300..... Now your right 4.3's can be done with a nice HP to weight ratio..which means little in marine. But it is expensive....Lets get back on topic some good info here

Here have a read: http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=293995&highlight=build+traps
 

redjmp

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Re: 262 Vortec V6 timing issues, sorry a bit long

OK I see. You meant shattering the bank.
 

whitney

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Re: 262 Vortec V6 timing issues, sorry a bit long (FIXED)

Re: 262 Vortec V6 timing issues, sorry a bit long (FIXED)

Thank you for all the great discussion on this subject and a special thanks to Whitney for the key piece of information.

Cameron

You're quite welcome! Everyone on here was very helpful when I was working through my issues, and I'm just returning the favor :) Long live iboats forums!
 

Cameron351

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Re: 262 Vortec V6 timing issues, sorry a bit long (FIXED)

Re: 262 Vortec V6 timing issues, sorry a bit long (FIXED)

Well, I just got back from the lake and the long reach spark plugs fixed it. We are now turning the Jet at 4000 RPM almost from a dead stop. It takes about a boat length and it is pulling hard and sounds clean and smooth. The timing is set to the factory 8* initial with a total of 22*. I am sure it could use a slight bit more timing but, it runs good and strong so I am leaving it alone.

Before anyone jumps in and says it should turn 4800 or so. Let me explain that they put larger impeller in this boat to reduce noise. They found by running a several hundred RPM's lower they reduce the amount of noise and only dropped a few MPH.

According to the Berkley Pump chart this engine is producing 175 horsepower. Which seams to be inline with the horsepower search I did on the Vortec V6. My search showed 160 to 185 depending on who you believe. So, 175 by the chart sounds about right to me. The engine sounds and feels right, it pulls pretty hard for a V6. Also according to the Berkley chart we were only making 100 to 125 horsepower with the short plugs in; so, we gained 50 to 75 horsepower just by putting the long reach plugs in. Wow, what a difference!

Thank you all, great thread, great conversation, great forum!
Cameron
 
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