470 shift interrupter question

[natemoore]

Last season, I read the sticky regarding this topic and meticulously followed the Merc manual's adjustment procedures several times on how to adjust the cables. I recall that it wouldn't even shift into forward (or was it reverse) as a result. So, I just did what it took with the adjusting bolts/turn buckles to get it to shift into and out of gear.

But, I have to go slightly into reverse to get out of forward and slightly into forward to get it out of reverse. The switch is killing the engine, but not quite at the proper place.

Question 1: Do lower shift cables ever stretch, making adjustment impossible, even if done "by the book."

Question 2: Is it possible to simulate the load on the prop with the engine off by using bungee cord to hold the dog gears tightly together?

This way, I can visualize what the shift plate is doing as the control lever is moved back and forth and hopefully do some tweaking.

 

[achris]

Re: 470 shift interrupter question

Hi,

Start looking for worn or loose items in the shift train. Start with the control box (most likely suspect) and then check the attachments on the ends of the cables for slackness. Also ensure there is as little movement of the slider (on the drive end of the lower shift cable). You'll need to pull the drive off to check that one, so I would check it last. Also check the clearance in the coupling between the upper shift shaft (goes through the bellhousing) and the intermediate shift shaft (the one sticking out of the front of the drive that engages with the upper shift shaft when the drive is installed). Check that with the drive installed. if all that is ok, the check the 'slop' in the shift spool. There is a procedure in the manual for that. Service manual #6 (look in the ADULTS ONLY section at the top of this forum), page 1C-38 "Shift system troubleshooting".

Chris..........

 

[natemoore]

Re: 470 shift interrupter question

Thanks Chris. I know when I rebuilt the outdrive, I replaced all those bushings and sliders. If a worn out control box is the most likely suspect, I'll start there because mine is definitely worn out.

 

[natemoore]

Re: 470 shift interrupter question

Chris,
I rebuilt the control box, went through the cable adjustment procedures, and now, sitting on the trailer, it won't come out of forward when the control stick is returned to neutral, and it won't go into reverse even with stick at reverse WOT position.

I'm reading the troubleshooting procedures you highlighted, but before I go further, could the fact that I'm working alone with no helper trying to "push in drive unit shift cable while simultaneously rotating the propeller shaft" be causing me some trouble? I'm holding light pressure on the shift cable with a bungee cord then jumping out of the boat to rotate the prop until it stops, then holding it with bungee cord. It's good exercise.

Will this put it in gear all the way or should I wait until my 13 year old boy gets home and have him help me? I dread that battle. Not only is he lazy, but it's his Xbox day (he only gets 3 hrs per week to play...officially).

 

[natemoore]

Re: 470 shift interrupter question

Okay. Son helped out without too much whining. On the troubleshooting step where you're checking for excessive play in the drive unit shift cable, where you're pushing in the drive unit shift cable while your helpful son rotates the prop counter clockwise until forward gear engages and the prop stops: Do you quit pushing in the cable just as the prop stops, then make a mark, or do you push the cable in until it won't go in any further and make the mark? My cable will go in an additional 1/4" after the prop stops. This is the difference between being within specs or not. Using the former, my play in the cable is less than 1/2". Using the latter, my play is about 3/4" (specs call for not more than 9/16").

The travel in my remote shift cable was right at 3" (2-7/8" - 3 1/8"), but the interrupter switch didn't open until close to 1/4" (specs call for 1/8"). I adjusted that. I'll bet that was my problem with having to go slightly into reverse to get out of forward, and vice versa.

 

[Don S]

Re: 470 shift interrupter question

Question 1: Do lower shift cables ever stretch, making adjustment impossible, even if done "by the book."

No, they never stretch, but they do wear internally which creates a lot of extra movement for the inner cable. The upper cable can also cause your problem.

Question 2: Is it possible to simulate the load on the prop with the engine off by using bungee cord to hold the dog gears tightly together?

Never tried.

 

[natemoore]

Re: 470 shift interrupter question

No, they never stretch, but they do wear internally which creates a lot of extra movement for the inner cable. The upper cable can also cause your problem.

Never tried.

Don, I got the outdrive shifting into forward and reverse at the detents, but I basically had to abandon the procedures, i.e., moving the barrel on the upper cable (controller) significantly forward, instead of four turns aft like the book said to get it to shift into forward, then compensating by moving the lower cable (drive) adjustment nut upward in the slot to get it to shift into reverse. I wonder how the shift interrupter will do tomorrow. It was badly adjusted before.

There is about 3/32" to 1/8" of in-and-out play in the upper cable, but it had the prescribed travel (3"). Is that too much slop? There is a pretty good amount of play between the cotter pin, plastic lever, and cable end thingy (I left the manual in the shop). If you've got a sixteenth inch here and there, it adds up. Is that a problem and do you have any tricks to fix that slop? Drill out and add a bushing? Wrap a strip of beer can around the cotter pin?

Take a look at my question in bold above and answer that one, please. Tanks.

 

[Don S]

Re: 470 shift interrupter question

This is why I usually post the books procedure for adjustment and not get involved with little details. If you can adjust it so it works, then fine. Run it and have fun. But, if you have to tinker and adjust and adjust to just barely make it work, then it's time to find what the problem is and fix it. When you can just barely get something to work, don't expect it to last long.
A little wear in the upper cable, some in the lower cable, along with a worn shift spool in the lower unit, and they can become a real bear to get adjusted sometimes.

 

[natemoore]

Re: 470 shift interrupter question

This is why I usually post the books procedure for adjustment and not get involved with little details. If you can adjust it so it works, then fine. Run it and have fun. But, if you have to tinker and adjust and adjust to just barely make it work, then it's time to find what the problem is and fix it. When you can just barely get something to work, don't expect it to last long.
A little wear in the upper cable, some in the lower cable, along with a worn shift spool in the lower unit, and they can become a real bear to get adjusted sometimes.

Well, often times the book procedures fall short or leave out information, e.g., that question in bold that I still need someone to answer, so we less experienced mechanics need to tap the vast knowledge of guys like you. I'm trying to find the problem. Is 1/8", in your experience, too much slop in the upper shift cable? I know I can buy a new shift plate, et al, but what happens if that 1/16" of slop is also present in the brand new parts? I've wasted a lot of money and still haven't found the root cause.

It's like I ask, "should the cotter pin wiggle around so much" and someone replies "how does that make you feel?" I need some solid, tangible answers.

 

[achris]

Re: 470 shift interrupter question

Well, often times the book procedures fall short or leave out information, e.g., that question in bold that I still need someone to answer, so we less experienced mechanics need to tap the vast knowledge of guys like you. I'm trying to find the problem. Is 1/8", in your experience, too much slop in the upper shift cable? I know I can buy a new shift plate, et al, but what happens if that 1/16" of slop is also present in the brand new parts? I've wasted a lot of money and still haven't found the root cause.

It's like I ask, "should the cotter pin wiggle around so much" and someone replies "how does that make you feel?" I need some solid, tangible answers.

As much as we would love to give you definitive answers sometimes it's just not possible. Is 1/8" too much? If the rest of the system is tight, no. If you have a lot of slop elsewhere then that 1/8" may be the 'straw that breaks the camels back'. As for upper shift cable, as long as you are getting the right amount of travel in the cable then it should work ok. Please don't ask me what the right amount of travel is, I'm 5,000 miles from the books at home with the numbers in them... sorry.

Chris.......

 

[natemoore]

Re: 470 shift interrupter question

I got it to shift into forward and reverse at the detents while on muffs, but I won't know about the shift interrupter until later today when I go out on the water. Hopefully, that tweak to the roller switch did the trick.

I understand the challenge of trouble-shooting. There's the cable end inside the controller, the cable itself, the cable end at the shift plate, the cotter pin, the cable end of the drive cable, the cable itself, the cable end at the drive, the shift shaft, the shift spool. If each one has a little wear, then the cumulative effect is too much slop.

I still need this question answered, though: When you're measuring for excess play, you're pushing in the drive shift cable while simultaneously rotating the prop. Do you stop pushing in the cable right when the the prop stops and make the first mark or do you push the cable in as far as it will go then make the mark? As I said before, this is the difference the play being 1/2" or 3/4" when the max play is 9/16". I'm guessing that you make the mark right when the prop stops.

 

[achris]

Re: 470 shift interrupter question

Push the cable in while turning the prop BACKWARDS. The prop will stop when the dog clutch if in the fully forward position and you feel as though if you keep turning the prop you'll be turning the whole engine over. (That's because you will be ) This is where you make the mark....

Hope that helps....

 

[natemoore]

Re: 470 shift interrupter question

Push the cable in while turning the prop BACKWARDS. The prop will stop when the dog clutch if in the fully forward position and you feel as though if you keep turning the prop you'll be turning the whole engine over. (That's because you will be ) This is where you make the mark....

Hope that helps....

That's what I thought and did. So drive unit cable et. al. is within specs. Good to know. Thanks!

 

[natemoore]

Re: 470 shift interrupter question

Not working properly with engine running. If I push/pull on the shift plate end of the upper shift cable, it has easily 3/8" of play. Even though it has the required length of travel (2-7/8" to 3 1/8"), I think the cable is worn slap out.

Putting that on my list.

It looks like the same type of cable is used for both throttle and shift cables, just the lengths are different. Is that right?

I found the lengths printed on the cables: 13 ft throttle and 15 ft shift.

Are these the right ones for throttle and shift?

http://www.iboats.com/Merc-Control-Cable-15-Teleflex-Marine/dm/*******.159357554--**********.162423620--view_id.169457

 

[achris]

Re: 470 shift interrupter question

Not working properly with engine running. If I push/pull on the shift plate end of the upper shift cable, it has easily 3/8" of play. Even though it has the required length of travel (2-7/8" to 3 1/8"), I think the cable is worn slap out.

Putting that on my list.

It looks like the same type of cable is used for both throttle and shift cables, just the lengths are different. Is that right?

Yes...

I found the lengths printed on the cables: 13 ft throttle and 15 ft shift.

Are these the right ones for throttle and shift?

http://www.iboats.com/Merc-Control-Cable-15-Teleflex-Marine/dm/*******.159357554--**********.162423620--view_id.169457

Yes again....

 

[natemoore]

Re: 470 shift interrupter question

Yes...



Yes again....

Thank again.

 

[natemoore]

Re: 470 shift interrupter question

Why am I bloodied? Because the damned bungee cord slipped of the prop and whacked me in the forehead.:facepalm:

Why am I smiling? BECAUSE I WON!!!!



My new iboats.com upper shift cable came in today. I replaced it and went through the adjustment procedures with the engine running (as opposed to having someone turn the prop). I pushed in the lower shift cable until I got a good, firm ka-chunk as it shifted into forward, made sure I had the six inches center to center (as spelled out in the manual), put the stick in the forward detent, adjusted the upper shift cable barrel until it slipped right on--ignoring the part about moving the barrel four turns away from the end. It basically works flawlessly now. Without having to mess around with the slotted adjustment nut, it clunks firmly into forward and reverse at the detents. No clackity clackity either. IT WAS THE SLOP IN THE UPPER SHIFT CABLE! I'm a happy camper, I mean boater. Now I just hope the shift interrupter works okay.

Going out for test run tomorrow!

 

[natemoore]

Re: 470 shift interrupter question

My god! Worked perfectly on muffs in the driveway. Out out the water--wait for the most annoying saying of our time...not so much! I fiddled with the damned thing tied up to the dock, seemed to have it working okay, then out on the Sound, still having to to the slightly-into-reverse-to-make-it-go-from-forward-into-neutral thing. Reverse-to-neutral works fine. Forward to neutral...not so much. The interrupter kills the engine momentarily, but it still stays in forward, unless I go reverse slightly.

Rebuilt controller. Brand new upper cable. Same old BS. I wish I had performed the shift-shaft-play- test while I had the foot off. :facepalm:

I can deal with the nuances and finickiness, but my wife can't. I'll never get to go skiing or tubing.

At this point, I suspect slop in the foot. How's the SEI stuff?

 

[achris]

Re: 470 shift interrupter question

Did you put a new lower shift cable in by chance? If so, how much movement did you leave in the end slider (in the bell housing)? You don't want ant more than about 1 thou. Also you didn't do the 'turn the brass barrel on the remote control cable back 4 turns". That's why you still have to go slightly into reverse to disengage forward. It's not in the manual to make it thicker, it's there for a reason..... Know what you gotta do now don't you .....

Chris..............
(Sorry about your forehead, That looks nasty, and close to taking an eye out )

 

[JerryIrons]

Re: 470 shift interrupter question

Nate,

I don't know if this will help you, but I got a boat that had years of problems with shifting into reverse. I tried following the manual and it didn't really help me. First I had to deal with some slightly bent shift shaft parts and intermediate shift shaft (the shoe and bracket), that needed replacing. And I can tell you that the mercruiser brand was much more exact than the off brand, just by playing with the parts. Then what I had to do to get it working correctly was basically doing it backwards, I got reverse to work correctly first, and then did my barrel adjusting from there to get neutral and forward right. It's been 2 years now, boating in lake erie with their busy public launches and the thing shifts like a dream. I'm pretty sure I have a worn shift spool in the lower unit and will have to deal with that some day, but not now!