Calling out ONDARVR and Duratec

[Llunker]

Hey Ondarvr this is for you bud,

I have read many places when i am looking up gelcoat painting and i have even found comments by you in other forums--i wont mention here...

My question is when i was reading in the other forum it sounds as though you either work for a lab or are in a fiberglass repair shop your whole life and you have always helped me out with my current jobs.

I wanted to say i appreciate all your help to our community here as I think your knowledge base is extremely large and you are an asset to all of us.

With that being said i am looking at buying my own spray gun to have and I am looking at anything over 2.5mm to be able to spray Gelcoat with either not alot of thinning or no thinning at all ---and in some places where i am reading some people choose duratec high gloss to avoid some of the pitfalls of either spraying or rolling on gelcoat.

But I remember one of the forums where i was reading you were talking back and forth with a guy about NOT using duratec because you said if gelcoat were meant to be used with that stuff there would be more of it made together. True?? and could you please explain best sprayer for the $$ when applying gelcoat either clear or with metalflake.


Thanks Bud

Llunker

 

[proshadetree]

Re: Calling out ONDARVR and Duratec

I can tell you this you need more than a 2.5 tip if you do not thin the crud out of it. Been there done that.

 

[Llunker]

Re: Calling out ONDARVR and Duratec

Kinda thought so--the gun i am spying or looking at is a 3/16" nozzle which in turn is a 4.762mm gun--but you have to hold it almost vertical the whole time because it will run out the end if you don't...

 

[Llunker]

Re: Calling out ONDARVR and Duratec

ONDARVR--you out there bud? must be shopping time for everyone...Merry X-mas ya'll

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Calling out ONDARVR and Duratec

Hello Llunker..and merry Christmas to ya

You have what sounds like a Dump Gun...this works with molds or plugs..but not a redo gun..

2.5 is rich IMHO.. your going to have to reduce your gel if your plannin on a respray...

Depending on who or what gel you get..will determine the reduction ...

Gel is just not Gel...its not like Paint you can be sure of viscosity...its All different...

YD.

 

[Llunker]

Re: Calling out ONDARVR and Duratec

I know --i have made a few sprays in my life and a couple times with the help of ondarvr. I have actually made previous repairs with a method of using a preval sprayer --but when i did i had the thin the crap out of it to use it.


This is not a new road for me--like i said i have sprayed a couple other times. I am just looking for the perfect gun --$$ is really no matter as I was looking at the G100 dump gun which also has a side catalyst which is great for doing multiple sprays without having to worry about your gun catalyzing on you.

But for the $$ the G100 is a pretty good buy and will do the work i need it to do ---i think??? unless someonelse has a better solution for gelcoat spraying???....I wont have to thin the gel-coat --the application will be a much easier surface to work with when i am done, and i am pretty good at spraying vs. brushing.

I usually get my gel from US Composites --this is a great company and product line that they carry. Now it i am able to reduce their gel and get it to spray out of a preval then i no for sure it will work in a g100 gun. With the tip being a 3/16"=4.762mm gun---thats a pretty good size hole for gel-coat.

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Calling out ONDARVR and Duratec

For what application are you going to be using gel ?

As I said..a Dump gun is good for Molds or Plugs..but not topcoating IMO..

A good gun is like a Binks 2001 with a 66 tip/air and 68 needle .. but for reduced gel with quick performance and application.

For all around application ( again..you will have to reduce the Gel to spray ( yes..its fine as long as its done right)) I suggest the Harbor F. standard gun setup. For 5 bucks more you can have a no questions asked replacement for 1 year .

As far as Duratec..its good stuff for gel blending work ... Hint...

YD.

 

[oops!]

Re: Calling out ONDARVR and Duratec

Hey Ondarvr this is for you bud,

I have read many places when i am looking up gelcoat painting and i have even found comments by you in other forums--i wont mention here...

My question is when i was reading in the other forum it sounds as though you either work for a lab or are in a fiberglass repair shop your whole life and you have always helped me out with my current jobs.

I wanted to say i appreciate all your help to our community here as I think your knowledge base is extremely large and you are an asset to all of us.

With that being said i am looking at buying my own spray gun to have and I am looking at anything over 2.5mm to be able to spray Gelcoat .

Thanks Bud

Llunker

LOL.......works in the field.......ondarvr is one of north americas top gellcoat specialists......this is not speculation or fantasy......it is investigated fact.

besides teaching the teachers how to use, apply. and maintain gellcoat, everyone i have asked in his feild (from california to the upper west coast of canada as far in as kansas city to the pararie provences of canada) openly calls him one of the countrys top pros.

we are very fortunate to have him on this forum.


as far as a gun....i use a 3.5 tip......go big or go home nly cowards shoot with a reducer....

 

[Llunker]

Re: Calling out ONDARVR and Duratec

as far as a gun....i use a 3.5 tip......go big or go home nly cowards shoot with a reducer....

thats what i am talking about--and with that dump gun it will get the job done. I can even change out tips --they range from

well just take a looksey !!!!

FN1 1/32" (0.8mm) Use for Parting Films
FN2 1/16" (1.6mm) Use for Parting Films
FN3 3/32" (2.4mm) Use for Paints
FN4 1/8" (3.1mm) Use for Resins
FN5 5/32" (3.9mm) Use for Gelcoats
FN6 3/16" (4.7mm) Use for Gelcoats
FN7 7/32" (5.5mm) Use for Gelcoats with Flakes
FN8 1/4" (6.2mm) Use for Gelcoats with Flakes
FN9 9/32" (7.1mm) Use for Sandblasting


I think having this gun with a variation of gun spray nozzles i will have a gun that will be very beneficial and a life long gun. The jury(ONDARVR) is still out on whether or not to use Duratec or not...sorry YD --I just remember reading where he specifically DOES NOT USE duratec....

Come on Ondarvr(da Man) --let me know again your thoughts on duratec and If i understand you right about using this product or not...

thanks guys for the comments so far..

OOOPS i meant to ask something--does each gelcoat-dependent on company have a particular spray pressure?? like do you spray gelcoat at 50psi or 30psi or wide open?? course like i said it may be dependent on the manufacturer.



llunker

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Calling out ONDARVR and Duratec

Just got home.


Like YD said, I use a Binks 2001 and it works well with a 66 tip, but it is pricy, I have a couple cheap HF guns that I use more than the 2001 just because I don't worry about trashing them. When I was doing big jobs I would buy several HF units and sometimes would just chuck them in the trash at the end of the job, the cost of acetone and labor to clean them was more than the gun. If you use a pressure pot with either gun there is much less need to thin the gel coat, but it is more work to clean up after your done spraying.

As far as thinning gel coat, its all in what you expect from the job. Most any thinner will degrade the gel coat, Duratec included, but small amounts of most things can be used and it may not cause any problems down the road depending on how whatever you sprayed is used and taken care of.

Gel coat relies almost 100% on pigments for UV protection, so adding something like Duratec Clear to thin the gel coat reduces the % of pigment in the mix, and if you go with the 50/50 blend they recommend it would be a huge reduction of the pigment loading. This can cause premature color change, typically to a yellow or amber, Duratec is also less water resistant. If the item you spray is protected from the sun and isn't left in the water for long periods of time, then it may create no real problem.

Duratec will make it spray and level better, it will also typically buff out to a higher gloss due to the lower pigment loading, resin will reach a higher gloss than pigment and there will be less pigment in the mix if you use Duratec. Having less pigment will change the look of the color slightly and may make it look deeper and richer, so there is an upside too.

You can buy products from the gel coat manufactures that are designed to thin gel coat, but it's still recommended to use as little as possible, because like I said in the other post you read, if these other chemicals and secret mixes were good to have in the gel coat, we would put them in there to start with. Well some of the ingredients are in gel coat, but not at the levels they would be after thinning.

 

[Llunker]

Re: Calling out ONDARVR and Duratec

Thanks Ondarvr for clearing some of that up..

My question would be if your using a HF cheap gun with at the most a 1.7mm tip you must have to thin the crap out of it to spray right? if so what is the best method of thinning as far as your opinion goes? oh and if i chose the dump gun would that also good be a great gun as well since there are so many options for nozzles??

I heard to stay away from Acetone, Mek, and I think Styrene as well, but that if you are going to thin Gel --you might want to use MEK solvent since it has a slightly slower evaporation rate than acetone but will give you a better chemical bond. What about patch booster??

Thanks for any further help Ondarvr..

Llunker

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Calling out ONDARVR and Duratec

It sounds as if you plan on doing an entire boat, if so use a pressure pot, a siphon or gravity feed gun won't supply enough gel coat to get the job done. You can buy any size tip you want for the binks gun, but with the HF gun you're kind of stuck with what it comes with, and I've seen several different sizes on the same guns. I use to open the boxes and look at each tip and only buy the guns with the biggest tips. The standard tip on the HF gun should spray gel coat OK, not great or fast, but will do it. The problem may be with the flake, depending on the size of flake you buy it may plug the tip, so buy small flake if you can.


Patchaid works well, better than anything else, but it will speed up the gel time, maybe more than you want. You should be able to spray it without thinning with a pressure pot.

 

[Llunker]

Re: Calling out ONDARVR and Duratec

What do you think about the G100 dump gun?

which is a gravity fed gun --but meant specifically for Gel-coat- with several different nozzles attachments


thanks for you help bud

llunker

 

[Bondo]

Re: Calling out ONDARVR and Duratec

Ayuh,... If you're gonna use that little thing, ya better have somebody else mixin' gel for ya...
That'll unload that quart in No Time...

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Calling out ONDARVR and Duratec

Hello Llunker..and merry Christmas to ya

You have what sounds like a Dump Gun...this works with molds or plugs..but not a redo gun..

2.5 is rich IMHO.. your going to have to reduce your gel if your plannin on a respray...

Depending on who or what gel you get..will determine the reduction ...

Gel is just not Gel...its not like Paint you can be sure of viscosity...its All different...

YD.

Again..If you plan on using that dump gun..thats for molds and plugs...

What IS your application please ?? I really can help you if you just answer some simple questions.. We can Hypo your question..but you should ask for more specific answers..

I have ALL sorts of guns ( including prevals..which I think I was the first one in the forums to suggest them for reps.. ).

Each gun has a specific use..each reducer I use is for application..

There is NO ONE gun that Is an all around Good gun for Gel...Touch-ups..bigger patches..full spray ( with a pressure pot ) .. they are all different..

But a Dump Gun is For ONE thing ONLY !! To put Mass amounts in a VERY short period of time where your going to be sanding the crap out of the part your spraying/finishing.

Duratec might say something like 50/50 Final ratio mix ..but thats only on the blend/final coat ( I would never mix 50/50 with duratec..its only a trick that helps blend the Color .. dark mostly.. and not needed if you have a perfect match of the gel in the first place ).

I have Stated in the past..( might have even brought up Patchaid in the first place ) that additives are not only usefull..but REQUIRED for Post mold Gel applications..

Application to application would require different guns and/or additives .. unless you have a $3k internal/external mix air/pump gel gun..

Your Dump gun with external mix for MEKP is .. ... not what I would use for ANYTHing...

Merry Christmas..

YD.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Calling out ONDARVR and Duratec

Do you have a compressor large enough to run that dump gun?

It could be used, not easy and a little messy, but it will put gel coat on the surface of the boat.

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Calling out ONDARVR and Duratec

Do you have a compressor large enough to run that dump gun?

It could be used, not easy and a little messy, but it will put gel coat on the surface of the boat.

I really dont think that a Dump gun is/should be used to re-coat Gel..

If..and I say IF you use a dumper..then you Will have to use PVA....or Alot of Acetone and rags to wipe off the uncured gel..

Ond...I would Love to meet you if your ever in the Detroit area...next time look me up .

YD.

 

[Llunker]

Re: Calling out ONDARVR and Duratec

Yes Ondarvr i have a 60gal 5hp air compressor.


Yacht Dr.,

Let me explain a little to see if we can see the page the same way. I am only wanting to fix small minor areas but was thinking one gun with multiple nozzles choices would be a great way to go. I thought i showed these photos before but let me show you a couple areas here i am re-doing now.

and here are some old repairs where the top photo is before and the bottom photo the afters

Now these are what i call minor and should be easily fixed with the proper equipment. I read and read so much on the internet and on these forums that you should have certain nozzles tip sizes for certain resins, epoxys, etc.... and if you want to be able to spray gel-coat--you need at least a 2.5mm or greater or you will be thinning these gel-coats out to be able to spray them.(which is what i am trying to avoid)

Now i have sprayed gel-coat in the past with a preval sprayer but did use acetone and a slight tinge of yellow became of it. Learned my lesson on that tip to never use acetone to thin gel-coat.

I like spraying gel-coat and enjoy fixing most of my own stuff. Although I am in the medical field i am pretty handy with everything else around the house.

now the above repairs may not be perfection by any means --but to the naked eye --its pretty darn good...

To me the G100 Looks like a pretty darn good gun and without the mess you get with other guns... and the ability to change nozzles all the way down to .8mm--all the way to 7.1mm--sounds like a very versatile gun...But what do i know??

But if you could offer more assistance I am all ears for how you would make those top two repairs--Remember that $$ for product should not be an issue when i am fixing it myself. If HF tools are not sufficient tools then please direct me elsewhere.

But to me this is my plan

1. wipe with Acetone and prepare the area with my dremel and start the faring process and then i am going to fill these areas with the proper fiberglass(cut up into tiny piecese), spreader, resins and hardener--lets don't talk about all the different sizes and uses of sanding equipment as i think i have that down to a science.

2. Allow said process to cure and then YES--sand...for the sake of words we will just say i have the process down.

3. spray the base coat with US composite Neutral gel-coat that has been mixed with black and will NOT BE using a surfacing agent and allow the coat to dry to a tacky cure--as i will be blowing(before it cures fully) on flake(blue and gold--that i got from TCP) with a straw--no sanding at all here.

4. Now here comes US composites Clear Coat which i will spray(with what gun--i don't know yet) and again not use a surfacing agent but just MEKP as a hardener.

5. I can keep adding coats of clear one at a time(without surfacing agent) about 10-30min apart till i get about 2-3 extra coats of clear in place.

6. Final coat--i am going to be using One final coat of clear mixed with MEKP, surfacing agent, and was thinking patch-aid at this particular time.

After full 24-48 hour cures---SAND, SAND, SAND--and when your tired of Sanding --go to Wet sanding ---till you can't sand anymore--THIS IS A JOKE here--hehehehehhehe

ok YD, if I am missing something or you would like to please add your thoughts i am all ears... If you see something in the process that doesn't look right --please be my guest on changing something

 

[Llunker]

Re: Calling out ONDARVR and Duratec

FINAL product after said Sanding, compounding, and waxes--of those previous repairs that i showed above of some repairs already made

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Calling out ONDARVR and Duratec

Its the end result that matters and yours looks great..

Your list looks good to me.

Im thinking of a small pressure pot system for nonthinned gel..

Although the g100 im sure would do it, I just dont know how precise you can get with it. Honestly I have never tried to do a small patch repair with a dumper so I cant tell you how well it will work.

If you do use the g100 please let us know how it worked out for ya .

YD.