COST FOR WORKING ON OUTBOARD MOTOR

JB

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Re: COST FOR WORKING ON OUTBOARD MOTOR

Estimates take time and skill. Time and skill cost money.<br /><br />Charging for it is survival when so many skinflints think making a profit in business is immoral and wont hire you to fix what you have estimated.<br /><br />How much do you need to make when your good earnings season is about 6 months out of a year?<br /><br />I don't think changing a head gasket is the whole story in that $2,000 whine
 

Forktail

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Re: COST FOR WORKING ON OUTBOARD MOTOR

The marine sales and service folks I know are some of the wealthiest people in the state. They got that way by making large profits. Much of their so called expenses are mere investments back into their own facility, which returns a bunch of $equity$ for them.<br /><br />Yea, they might get assessed more tax for having the water-front property, but that property is worth more. The larger inventory might cost more to overhead, but it is worth more. Training the staff might be an expense, but it adds to the reputation and value of your shop, making it more turn-key saleable. Buying tools will cost, but those tools don't disappear, rather they add to the value of the shop. And the new showroom and paved parking lot was an expense too, but it added to the resale value of the facility and helped sell more stuff. Many of the expenses used in justifying the high rates come back to benefit the owner. Have you ever noticed that some of the real "nice" sales and service shops have some of the "not so nice" rates and deals?<br /><br />Some of the rates these guys charge are ridiculous.<br /><br />JB, estimates are part of the business. If a customer can get a free estimate, he will. If a customer (skinflint) doesn't like an estimate, he doesn't have to take it. I've found that charging for estimates is not survival, but rather not charging for them is. IMO shops that charge for estimates don't need your business, and shops that do need your business, will do anything for it. I can't remember the last time I was charged for an estimate.
 

gator79

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Re: COST FOR WORKING ON OUTBOARD MOTOR

I am not sure about the marine industry, but in the auto industry the average age of a well trained tech is about 35 years old. I have been doing it for 29 years. seems nobody wants to take the time and efort it takes to train and maintain the knowledge to do the repairs. I have more hours training than someone with a masters degree. I still spend 4 weeks a year <br />training, all this cost the dealer. we charge 65.00<br />per hour and most techs only get about 1/3 of that.<br />it will allways cost more to have a professional do work for you, no matter what you are having done.
 

seahorse5

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Re: COST FOR WORKING ON OUTBOARD MOTOR

I've found that charging for estimates is not survival, but rather not charging for them is. IMO shops that charge for estimates don't need your business, and shops that do need your business, will do anything for it. I can't remember the last time I was charged for an estimate. [/QB]
In effect, you are saying that the tech (or the shop) should not charge you to pull apart a powerhead, clean up the parts, inspect them to see what needs replacing, look up all the needed items and price them out, then write up an estimate for you. That usually involves several hours of labor, depending on the motor.<br /><br />If you get the repair done, that labor is part of the bill, fine, but if you say "Nah, I'll do it somewhere else", then you should pay for the tech's (or shop's) time and expertise for pulling things apart and making the estimate.<br /><br />Anyone can give a 'free' estimate by looking at something, then shouting out the highest priced worse case scenario to repair, but that would not be accurate, would it?
 

swist

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Re: COST FOR WORKING ON OUTBOARD MOTOR

This last post (gator79) hints at another nationwide problem. We are college-degree crazy. The number of people learning trades is way off from previous years - many people are getting BA degrees in history or philosophy so they can work at McD's. Someone in high school who wants to be a mechanic or electrician is talked out of it in favor of going to college....<br /><br />There are always tons of ads for experienced people in the mechanical trades, even when jobs are scarce in general. <br /><br />This creates a supply-and-demand problem. The price of mechnical work goes up as there are fewer people to do it.
 

gator79

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Re: COST FOR WORKING ON OUTBOARD MOTOR

swist, that is my point exactly, if you are a well trained tech you can make a very good living. also <br />look what plumbers are making now. have you seen any 20 year old plumbers latley? there is going to be a real shortage in technical fields in the future. you can have all the degrees you want but if your car wont bring you to work or your computer wont work you have a problem. you still people to fix things.<br />in the automotive field now, trained techs are being recruited and even enticed with a large signing bonus plus relocation cost. who would of thought that would ever happen?
 

voodoo

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Re: COST FOR WORKING ON OUTBOARD MOTOR

I charge $55 can. for an estimate.<br />I takes time and effort to be accurate, so half way thru a job you don't get the phone call " ah there seems to be a bit more wrong here than we thought"<br />Anyone who just throws a # at you is High balling so they can rape you in the end.<br />I'd rather under promise and over deliver.
 

Forktail

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Re: COST FOR WORKING ON OUTBOARD MOTOR

By seahorse - In effect, you are saying that the tech (or the shop) should not charge you to pull apart a powerhead, clean up the parts, inspect them to see what needs replacing, look up all the needed items and price them out, then write up an estimate for you. That usually involves several hours of labor, depending on the motor.
That's not what I'm saying at all. You just want to argue again.<br /><br />If a tech has gone to that extent, then he has already done more than half of the entire repair work. This would hardly be what you're calling an "estimate". You are referring to an exact diagnosis and repair cost established by destructive diagnosis, with authorization by the customer. This is not an "estimate".<br /><br />
If you get the repair done, that labor is part of the bill, fine, but if you say "Nah, I'll do it somewhere else", then you should pay for the tech's (or shop's) time and expertise for pulling things apart and making the estimate.
Again, in this case the customer has already authorized disassembly of the outboard which included cleaning parts, diagnosing the exact problem, and itemizing the repair parts. At this point, the customer would be walking away at mid-repair and his obligation to pay for that. And since the outboard would now be disassembled in pieces and parts, and in the shop's possession, it would be very difficult for the customer to now take it "somewhere else".<br /><br />
Anyone can give a 'free' estimate by looking at something, then shouting out the highest priced worse case scenario to repair, but that would not be accurate, would it?
An estimate is just that....an "estimate".<br /><br />Estimates are usually never exact, and many aren't accurate at all. Some people might even call them a guess. They are based on what the estimated problem is and what the estimated cost to repair that problem is. They don't require complete tear-downs, nor an exact diagnosis. They only require that the owner understand it is an estimate of what the actual authorized repair might be. Verbiage on the estimate form will be specific to that effect (by law).<br /><br />Good shops with much repair experience can make good honest estimates. In other words, they can give you a good idea of what you're in for. Most likely they've seen similar problems before and know what to expect. And once repair is authorized by the customer, they will immediately notify the customer if repair expenses will exceed the estimate. <br /><br />When a customer signs his name to the estimated repair costs, he is authorizing the repair with the understanding it could cost more or less. It is only that authorized repair that allows the disassembly, cleaning, diagnosis, and itemized parts cost you are describing seahorse. If you are doing that kind of work on outboards just to give an "estimate", and you're doing it without the customer's understanding that there is a charge associated with it, and without his signed authorization of that charge, you are crazy.<br /><br />Again, it doesn't take much for a shop to do an estimate. My shops do it free.
 

seahorse5

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Re: COST FOR WORKING ON OUTBOARD MOTOR

So, in effect, you are only talking about an educated guesstimate, not an itemized estimate. <br /><br />I agree that an estimate is subject to change, according to unforseen problems. Most retail customers think an estimate is a firm "quote" and raise hell if it exceeds the agreed to amount. Some states allow up to 10% difference on an estimate, then require customer's permission, or he doesn't have to pay the >10% additional.<br /><br />An itemized estimate is more accurate, takes more time, and is better for the customer (and the shop) in the long run. Top of the head guesses are best for routine items like tune-ups, water pumps, starter replacements, etc.<br /><br />In tropical salt water environments, "guesstimates" can be a tricky thing.
 

Forktail

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Re: COST FOR WORKING ON OUTBOARD MOTOR

By seahorse - So, in effect, you are only talking about an educated guesstimate, not an itemized estimate.
seahorse, for Pete's sake, stop with the rhetoric. <br /><br />An estimate is an "educated guesstimate". It's an approximation, and a tentitive or rough evaluation. It's preliminary, done prior to any work performed. <br /><br />If a shop is going to disassemble the outboard, clean parts, diagnose the problem, and give an itemized list of parts needed for repair, it better be more than just an "estimate". After they've done those things, they will know exactly what the repair will cost. That goes way beyond what you're calling an "estimate".<br /><br />And lets not forget that before a shop tears into an outboard, they better have authorization from the customer, along with his understanding that working on the outboard has a cost associated with it. Can you imagine dropping your outboard off at the dealer so he can do an estimate, only to find out he has disassembled it!?<br /><br />Furthermore, estimates can be itemized, and good ones usually are. The outboard doesn't need to be disassembled for this. Reputable shops (whether they're salt water shops or not) know what parts are going to be needed. And if they find something out of the ordinary, they simply contact the customer with the bad news. No surprises or estimate gouging that way.<br /><br />Again, if you're tearing apart outboards just so you can give an exact estimate, you're crazy. And by the way, there's no such thing as an exact estimate...that's a contradiction of words.
 

seahorse5

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Re: COST FOR WORKING ON OUTBOARD MOTOR

Forktail,<br /><br />You are a businessman who knows motors and that problems that can be unforseen, and you deal with a place that you trust. So when you get an "estimate" from those folks, you know that it could change and sometimes expect that to happen.<br /><br />A dealer who has various types of retail customers, has to be super accurate almost all of the time, since much of the public thinks an estimate is gospel, and when an unforseen extra cost arises, the public thinks the dealer is out to screw him. If most dealers had their way, they would prefer customers who are also in business, since each understands not only the costs involved, but that s**t happens.<br /><br />I think most dealers get into confrontations with customers because each had different expectations, resulting in misunderstandings. A good service manager will fully explain the situation and keep the customer apprised of any situations, and not surprise him or her with a unexpected total on an invoice.<br /><br />Of course there are always customer types that go into a dealer with a chip on their shoulder and like to raise hell, no matter what transpires.
 

Forktail

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Re: COST FOR WORKING ON OUTBOARD MOTOR

seahorse, a good shop has a proven system for doing estimates. That system does not discriminate according to the type of customer, whether he is a businessman or a weekend warrior. It will clearly state that it's only an estimate, what the estimate includes, and the responsibilities of the shop and customer. <br /><br />So contrary to what you've said, an estimate is not a green light to tear down an outboard, clean parts, diagnose the exact problem, make out an itemized parts list, and charge a customer or expect him to pay for the repair. An estimate is preliminary...prior to any work. A customer must authorize any work and understand that he will be responsible to pay for that work.
 

real550A

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Re: COST FOR WORKING ON OUTBOARD MOTOR

You guys are killing me! This is as good as "who's on first"!<br />Where I come from, an estimate is just as Forktail says. It's a ballpark figure to let the customer make a sound decision whether to proceed, sell, or put it off. <br />Shouldn't be any harder than that.
 

GatorMike

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Re: COST FOR WORKING ON OUTBOARD MOTOR

I look at it this way. Buy a galon of gas for your car, if it costs $1.50 the same galon at a marina costs $2 at an airport fixed base operation it costs $3. Buy a bottle of car wax it costs $5, write boat wax on the bottle and you pay $15, write airplane wax on it and it costs $30. If you don't like paying $75 per hr for a marine mechanic try paying an airplane mechanic.
 

TOHATSU GURU

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Re: COST FOR WORKING ON OUTBOARD MOTOR

We just raised our labor rate from $75.00 to $100.00 per hour. The reason we did( and I suspect that most mainline dealers have done the same) is so that we get the maximum reimbursement from the manufacturers under the warranty labor rate. Most manufacturers have a top cap on labor of $65.00 to $100.00 per hour. Then you qualify for a percentage of that rate or the full rate depending on your level of compliance with the manufacturers policys. IE. CSI, schools attended, parts stocking, how clean your service bays are and whether or not you have multiple lines of engines. <br /><br />Also, we have always looked at "estimates" as being a service in an of itself that we charge for. If "Bob" pulls in and says "my engine runs rough" we are going to charge him for the time to determine what is causing that problem. He can then tell us to repair it for an additional charge or keep the bucket of parts we hand him back. If "Bob" pulls in and says "my engine needs a waterpump" we will give him a free WAG. But thats all that it is...a guess. Estimates are legally binding quotes for a specfic repair. Smart service writers give high estimates. If the job comes in below the estimate the dealership is a hero. Weak service writers estimate low and than creep up the job with "unforseen problems." <br /><br />Boats are not like cars. People drive their car and tell the service writer what the symptom is. People haul their boats in and say "it needs a little tuneup." That's usually after they have sunk it, burned up the starter, stuck the rings, burned up the waterpump, hooked the battery up backwards, thoughtfully added water to their gas,accidentally cut wires, destroyed the gears in the lowerunit and removed the #3 piston.
 

orca

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Re: COST FOR WORKING ON OUTBOARD MOTOR

G,day. Another problem with servicing marine motors is that it can be difficult to diagnios the problem, if Joe Average brings his boat in and says that he has a problem at high speed it is not like a car where you can go for a spin round the block. With a boat you need to travel to the ramp, launch the boat, diagnois the problem and travel back to the shop. This all costs time and money. Even a marine dyno will not find all the problems.
 

rodbolt

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Re: COST FOR WORKING ON OUTBOARD MOTOR

but always remember. all it needs is a little adjustment :)
 

Forktail

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Re: COST FOR WORKING ON OUTBOARD MOTOR

whaley, many reputable shops will have a large tank/pool where you can back the entire boat into and run the outboard WOT.<br /><br />Thanks for your input Elvin. The bottom line is that any time a shop works on an outboard, whether for an estimate or not, they must have the cutomers authorization along with the understanding that there will be a charge for that service. Those shops tearing into an outboard without the owner's authorization or understanding that there will be a fee, and then complain because they go somewhere else, are crazy.
 

Oldsaltydog

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Re: COST FOR WORKING ON OUTBOARD MOTOR

Thanks for your sense of humor, Elvin! (I have finally found the number three piston in the garage.)
 

Scaaty

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Re: COST FOR WORKING ON OUTBOARD MOTOR

Originally posted by stsmith:<br /> A doctor does not warranty his work. Niether do hospitals. Yet they charge more than repair personel. I agree prices are just too high for everything.
You mean you aint heard about the doctor and biker wrench talking? Biker says taking a motors valves out and replacing them is just as hard as a doctor doing it it a human heart. Doc says oh yeah, try doing it with the motor stil running!
 
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