creation science vs. evolution

[SCO]

Re: creation science vs. evolution

Ralph, what about when the Muslims muscle in, gain favor and majority, and then declare all other thought invalid as from the infidels, and shut down the free thought process? Point is do you want to give any religion the power to religiously indoctrinate our children in school? If you say yes for Christianity, then you also open the door for the Muslims, Budists, Hindus, Jews etc.

 

[mattttt25]

Re: creation science vs. evolution

i read most of the posts on this, so may have missed it...<br /><br />has anyone thought about the family and church role? i am biased because i fully believe in evoltuion, but i personally don't want the schools teaching my children about creationism. i think that should be the role of the parents and church.<br /><br />i can't even see how a teacher could explain it to my daughter. "you see, god created adam and eve, and everything else in 7 days"<br /><br />"who is god? how do you know he's out there? how did he do it in 7 days?"<br /><br />"well, we have no idea. but it's called faith. you just have to believe it."<br /><br />seems strange to me...

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: creation science vs. evolution

but what if the scientific conclusions have<br />absolutly no merit Ralph? we should still<br />teach it still?<br />I have read a LOT of writings and papers by<br />creation scientists, some before I ever posted<br />this topic. their arguments are simply redicoulous<br />to me. I sure wouldn't teach my kids something<br />I knew was false just to give them another point<br />of view...

 

[ebbtide176]

Re: creation science vs. evolution

what would be nice would be having the mention made during the public education, with prefaces such as:<br /><br />although we have certain theories and much scientific research into the creation of our universe, there are many things yet unknown to us. there are some who believe that a supreme being put everything into motion and set the stage for everything else that we have come to discover by our research & scientific calculations. <br /><br />we will just deal with the scientific theories such as evolution, natural selection, survival of the fittest, and things we can understand from our research. there are still many gaps in our understanding. the theories we discuss are simply theories that have been agreed upon by a majority of scientists. <br /><br />however, we welcome you to discuss things outside of evolution with your parents & peers, since some of these scientific theories also can be found to coincide within other disciplines of understanding, such as in the case of a supreme being and creator.<br /><br />(well that's a rough draft. does it sound ok?)

 

[SCO]

Re: creation science vs. evolution

Aren't we a secular country to some degree Ralph. Isn't that one of the major points of this country ...freedom of religion...and I didnt say from religion which would be imposing Godlessness on people. Secular is almost a cuss word now a days.

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: creation science vs. evolution

Ralph, what about when the Muslims muscle in, gain favor and majority, and then declare all other thought invalid as from the infidels, and shut down the free thought process? Point is do you want to give any religion the power to religiously indoctrinate our children in school? If you say yes for Christianity, then you also open the door for the Muslims, Budists, Hindus, Jews etc.

You're missing my whole point. I don;t want any one group "in power" at all, including secularists. The way to prevent that is by teaching all sides and tolerance.<br /><br />

Aren't we a secular country to some degree Ralph. Isn't that one of the major points of this country ...freedom of religion...and I didnt say from religion which would be imposing Godlessness on people. Secular is almost a cuss word now a days.

Freedom of religion is not freedom from religion. The secularist crowd want the later. They don;t espouse tolerance or openness or diversity. They want to limit information and debate. I say, let it all hang out and let the individual decide.

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: creation science vs. evolution

but what if the scientific conclusions have<br />absolutly no merit Ralph? we should still<br />teach it still?<br />

See my earlier definition of credible. When there is controversy or debate, all sides should be presented or the subject should be completely avoided.

 

[SCO]

Re: creation science vs. evolution

I didn't miss your point, I made a counter point. Also, I anticipated the freedom "from" religion response, so I addressed that in the post, you must have missed it. I don't want freedon from religion, and am a secularist. I may not be defining secular the same way you do. I think to be secular in this discussion means to disallow a religious indoctrination by any particular religion in our state sponsored schools. Let the parents do that.

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: creation science vs. evolution

Then you understand that I want no one point of view taught at the expense of another when there is a legitimate debate and many people on all sides.

 

[SCO]

Re: creation science vs. evolution

Yes I understand that. My counterpoint is that we draw the line at religious belief, in state sponsored schools, because everyone has a different idea of religion. The state cannot pick one over the other. That was the first thing(i imagine) that the founders determined, that the government wolud not favor any particular religion. Why else would they make such a concious exclusion?

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: creation science vs. evolution

How many of the world's problems can be boiled down to a complete lack of understanding of others? What causes that? A lack of information discussion and debate. Whenever you close off the flow of information and present just one side of anything remotely controversial it breeds ignorance and fear which leads to distrust and hatred. All bad things in my opinion. Openness and honesty are always the best policy. I believe int he free marketplace of ideas.

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: creation science vs. evolution

Ralph, I was personally fortunate enough to go<br />a school where open information and dialouge was<br />encouraged. I took 4 years of religion classes<br />every day where we studied and discussed all<br />religions without predjudice or ridicule. it was<br />a Jesuit run school. although I was raised as a<br />Catholic, I feel that I have outgrown many of<br />the churches outdated notions and call myself<br />more of a christian today.<br />both of my wife's grandfathers were ministers in<br />the church of christ, and one of her grandmothers<br />told her that she would go to hell if she married<br />a catholic boy and disowned her. very sad.<br />I consider this type of thinking "right wing radical".<br />all of the people who are behind this push to<br />teach "creation science" are equally to the right<br />IMO. those are some scary people!<br />on the other hand, ebb offers a good point about<br />schools perhaps being too far to the left. I tend<br />to agree with that statement.<br />I am all for a free and open forum in schools<br />that encourage free thought and learning. if<br />evolution teachings are going to far, then I have<br />no problem pulling them back a bit. but teaching<br />creation science as an actual science is not the<br />answer IMHO.

 

[Bassy]

Re: creation science vs. evolution

Just to point out, religion is taught in the classroom at times. Example, Social Studies. Religion is taught as part of a culture of people in history(Ancient Civilizations). It's not taught as a right/wrong lesson, but as getting to know how other cultures think and what was important to their civilizations. So, I don't see the problem as long as the teacher isn't responsible for voicing which religion is the best/ correct one. Personally I would have to refuse. None of my business. They have families for that.<br />Bassy

 

[SCO]

Re: creation science vs. evolution

I agree with that MY, why not pull back on the evolution teachings. The purist will say that if that was the policy, then we'd still think that the earth was the center of the univrse. It this case though we are trying to find common ground for teaching our kids. Parents should be able to decide what their kids are exposed to, my chief complaint about allowing religious teachings unless elective. I don't want my daughter taught that she is sinfull unless wears a burka..an extreme view that is not so extreme in France these days. I certainly respect the view of the parent that does not want their beliefs undermined at school.

 

[mikeandronda]

Re: creation science vs. evolution

Ebb, great post......It is what I propose we do. All would be satisfied and I believe it would work out the best for both sides. If only people were tolorent of all. I dont want my kids being taught that evolution is the ONLY theory but being that we are a counrty with the idea of Freedom Of Religion no one religion should be forced on anyone.We should just allow the kids to learn that there are other views. <br /><br />ok how about this. What if a group of parents got together and petetioned a school in thier area to start a class teaching the creation theory?Students could have the choice of which class to take. Would it be ok in any of your eyes. What if it was a significant amount of people? Just a thought here.

 

[18rabbit]

Re: creation science vs. evolution

Quick note on the freedom of religion…someone stated above that it is freedom of religion not freedom from religion. This is correct. The intent of the 1st Amendment was never to remove religion from government; it was to allow people to choose their religious beliefs. The basis for it was the requirement by Massachusetts that its citizens must be members of a specific church or they could not vote in elections. The founders felt everyone should be able to decide their own church membership and still vote…hence, the “Freedom of Religion”. The “separation of church and state" was invented in 1964 (?) by a super-legislator, the Supreme Court…after the same super-legislator issued a ruling years before that it alone had the authority to final decisions on Constitutional issues.

 

[JoeW]

Re: creation science vs. evolution

The U.S. Can never be completely free from religion. The laws which comprise this nation have a basis in religious beliefs, as do the laws of most nations.

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: creation science vs. evolution

MY - you had the chance to see all sides and come to your own conclusions so why would you want to deny others the same opportunity?<br /><br />

one of her grandmothers<br />told her that she would go to hell if she married<br />a catholic boy and disowned her. very sad.<br />I consider this type of thinking "right wing radical". all of the people who are behind this push to teach "creation science" are equally to the right<br />IMO.

I think you drawing the wrong conclusion. Those people are clearly people who have never been exposed to other ideas. They are the result of limiting information, discussion and debate...IMO

 

[wilkin250r]

Re: creation science vs. evolution

Isn't there more than one theory of creation? Which creation are we going to teach? Should it be limited to only the Judeo-Christian version, or do we include Hinduism, or many of the creation theories presented by Native Americans? If we are going to teach all theories, shouldn't we teach ALL theories? <br /><br />And thus the dilema, because it is nearly impossible to teach every single theory from every religion. Can we limit it to just the two most popular, Evolution and Creation as defined by the Christian religion? In today's politically correct world, I'm sure there would be a huge outcry from the minority religions. So how many theories do we include to make everybody happy? Two, three, five, ten? Any number you choose and there will be objection from those left out.<br /><br />Thus, it seems to me there is only one solution. Teach strictly Evolution, because that is the only theory that is defensible. Since you can't teach ALL religous theories, you can't teach any religious theories. Remove all religious theories, and evolution is the only theory left to teach.

 

[mikeandronda]

Re: creation science vs. evolution

Well this would be settled if we could just let the Kids know that there are other beliefs out there. Kids are taught from early on about evolution and by the time they are teens may no longer even relize this. A disclaimer like EBB posted may be the solution. I believe in the Creation theory as it is writen in the Bible but I am greatful to have all the theorys out there so I may make a choice on what I believe. I am just saying I want my Kids to have that chance as well.