Electric Outboard? Thoughts?

[smokeonthewater]

Re: Electric Outboard? Thoughts?

Now hydrogen power cells MAY make it into the mainstream for cars at least but I dunno about boats

What many people don't realize is that a car that gets 30 mpg and carries 12 gallons of gas with a range of over 300 miles compares to an electric car if it carried the same volume/weight of batteries as the fuel in the other with a range of likely 30 miles or less.. to get the electric car to 300 miles requires a battery pack comparable to a fuel tank that would take the gas car 3000 miles

So we go to the boat and for the boat to have a range of 150 miles it needs say enough fuel to take a similar size car 1500 miles and to do it with electric it would compare to a car with a range of 15,000 miles IE a Dually pulling a trailer holding 1500 gallons or 12,000 lbs of fuel assuming 10 mpg with that load... there are some that get more and some that get less but these are just quick estimates for illustration purposes


Soooooo why won't it still work for a boat if we really want it too? because while we CAN haul around HUGE battery packs on the road and give up passenger space and we only need a short burst of high power to get up to speed where we can cruise on minimal power and then recover some of that burst with regenerative braking, a planing boat, much like an airplane. needs that burst of high power the entire time it is cruising... driving a planing boat is similar to climbing a never ending mountain in a car. it's ALWAYS up hill
soo the dually above getting 10 mpg would now be going up a neverending mountain road and suddenly it's getting 3 mpg instead of 10 so we have to triple the fuel to 4500 gallons and 36,000 lbs and then the dually becomes a semi truck and now we are using even MORE fuel so we add some more which of course takes more yet and all this was to do the same amount of work as a small boat carrying 4 people around for half a day of cruising 30 mph with an electric motor and the batteries to do it.

 

[H20Rat]

Re: Electric Outboard? Thoughts?

Gasoline (or other fossil fuel) has a much greater energy density than batteries. It is also much cheaper per BTU.

Not counting cap-ex, which will drop as the technology advances, electrical power is almost always substantially cheaper. Using uncle's calculations above, the operational costs of the electric are going to be roughly half the dead dinosaur cost.

pure and simple physics dictate that a big powerplant is far more efficient at burning fossil fuels than a small IC engine. Even with the conversion to electric, it still wins over a small gas burning engine. The problem just becomes the costs involved with storing the power (life, weight, size of batteries...) Once you take that into account, the financial equation changes, often dramatically.

(Small engines are extremely bad at converting fuel to power, a typical 4 stroke outboard is around 15-20% efficient, MAX! So take the BTU's and divide by 5. Powerplants are upwards of 50% efficient for fossil fuels.)

 

[smokeonthewater]

Re: Electric Outboard? Thoughts?

of course if you couple that to transmission line loss the number drops to about 30% and then if the charging process was as high as say 80% we're at 24% and if the power controller was also 80% we're at 19.2% and if the motor was 90% we are left with 17.28% total from powerplant to motor output shaft.

not quite the amazing improvement in that light

 

[Chris1956]

Re: Electric Outboard? Thoughts?

Commercial powerplants are 33% efficient, at generating electricity, via steam turbine. Burning natural gas to heat a house is 90% efficient. This is why electric heat is so expensive compared to natural gas. However, internal combustion engines are not as efficient as natural gas heat.

Electric motors and generators are 99% efficient. Electric transmission of AC power is very efficient as well.

So the trade-off of efficient use of power is between the efficiency of the gasoline engine, vs the efficiency of the steam turbines. The wild card is the density of power that gasoline has over electricity storage.

 

[Mason78]

Re: Electric Outboard? Thoughts?

Automakers have to get their entire lineup over 54 MPG average by 2015.

I mis-typed.... its 54 MPG by 2025. Not 2015.

 

[Mason78]

Re: Electric Outboard? Thoughts?

I think the biggest issue with electric power is the battery. Once a better energy storage system is developed electric power will become a better option.

5.11 makes a rechargeable flashlight that uses a capacitor instead of a battery. It fully charges in 90 seconds and runs for 120 minutes. A friend mine bought one and it weights next to nothing. It feels like a regular light with the battery removed. Makes me think that capacitors will replace batteries in the future.

But... as many have pointed out, boats need way more power than a flashlight. Just something to think about.

 

[V153]

Re: Electric Outboard? Thoughts?

The only way I could use that motor was if'n it had a really long extention cord attatched to it ...

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for alternative power sources. But until battery technology improves significantly I think electric cars are still sort of a novelty. Sure they make us feel 'green' but there are other avenues we should be exploring at least as aggresively. Hydrogen, LP, Natural Gas to name a few.

Someone mentioned an electric motor's acceleration. It's like flicking a switch from off to on. In the late 60's my Dad brought home a fiberglass 1/4 scale Lincoln convertable on a go kart frame, powered by a 24 volt motor. With a pair of freshly charged car batteries that sob'd give ya whiplash & lay rubber from one end of the street to the other. But not for very long til the batteries ran out ...

 

[Chris1956]

Re: Electric Outboard? Thoughts?

Some years ago I was working on the Army's Land Warrior project. Land Warrior was a wearable computer, sensors and comms package. The Army was developing new batteries to power the thing. One of the generally accepted rules was that chemical batteries were as good as they were likely to get, due to the limits of chemistry. On that project the goal was to reduce the use of electricity, thereby extending the mission time.

I am therefore not expecting any battery breakthroughs which dramatically increase the watt density.

 

[metriccrescentwrench]

Re: Electric Outboard? Thoughts?

I am therefore not expecting any battery breakthroughs which dramatically increase the watt density.

There are tons of new developments on the horizon in that area. I know a pHD who is working in the development of new battery technology, you'd be surprised at all the work going into this. I see battery technology now much as computer technology back when companies relied on mainframes and the best desktops were TRS-80's. Heck, my next car will probably be electric, all I use my car for is driving to work and back home so the current electric cars with a range of 75 to 100 miles will be plenty good. Instead of paying over $200 per month for the privilege of driving to work I'll be cutting that down to maybe $50 or so.

 

[QC]

Re: Electric Outboard? Thoughts?

Electric motors and generators are 99% efficient.

Define that a little better for me, Chris. I have been trying to get a handle on that, and I am stumped. Are you saying that between incoming current, and motor output there is only a 1% loss?

What I have been trying to get a handle on, and solid data is difficult to find, is hybrid efficiency with no regen. So IC engine flywheel power to generator output power to motor output power. I believe you are talking about the last piece, but I want to understand all three. State of the art. Anybody know? Maybe a better way to put it is let's say we have 100 bhp flywheel power being delivered by a gasoline engine, how much horsepower will I get out of the electric motor at the end.

 

[NSBCraig]

Re: Electric Outboard? Thoughts?

Electric performance boating for those with tons of dough.
Cigarette Racing

 

[frantically relaxing]

Re: Electric Outboard? Thoughts?

I heard the other day on TV, some guy stated that right now, the world is producing twice as much oil as we're using. Which kinda gets me scratching my head over $4 a gallon gas ( )... but what I'm getting at is the so-called future with electric vehicles, and the extra power that will be necessary, and the extra power plants that will have to be built, and then guess what's going to happen? Natural gas shortage! Natural gas prices will go thru the roof while oil prices start to fall, and then, monetarily speaking, it will probably be cheaper to drive your piston powered dinosaur than your electric albatross.

Unless some very serious advances in solar power come into play, at least I know I'll have enough gasoline till I die!

 

[QC]

Re: Electric Outboard? Thoughts?

Be careful about any political ramifications with oil/energy cost discussions, guys. Facts are fine. Just a friendly reminder

Don't forget we have some of the lowest fuel prices in the world, and the oil itself is a global commodity. On the other hand, North American Natural Gas prices will be below $5 per mmbtu for at least the next 20 years. We have mega reserves and no short term way to ship it. That keeps it insulated to a certain degree from International market forces.

 

[metriccrescentwrench]

Re: Electric Outboard? Thoughts?

and the extra power that will be necessary, and the extra power plants that will have to be built, and then guess what's going to happen? Natural gas shortage!

That's overlooking the fact that the much of new power generating capacity being built in the US is renewable. Close to 20% of all electrical energy produced in the US is from renewable sources, and over half of all new generating capacity being installed is renewable. Those numbers are continuing to climb.

Just wondering what everyone thinks about this new electric outboard?

Look what you started.

 

[QC]

Re: Electric Outboard? Thoughts?

That's overlooking the fact that the much of new power generating capacity being built in the US is renewable. Close to 20% of all electrical energy produced in the US is from renewable sources, and over half of all new generating capacity being installed is renewable.

Sources please.

 

[V153]

Re: Electric Outboard? Thoughts?

Speaking of batteries: Anybody that can prove they gotta cool 30 mil in the bank can visit and/or bid on the late Charles Burgess's private island in Charlotte Harbor. No 'tire kickers' please ...

Burgess + Mallory = Duracell


edit. It's called Little Bokeelia Island btw. They're asking $29.5 million but I bet if'n ya went in'n waved 24 or 5 cash at em they'd probly take it ...

 

[Chris1956]

Re: Electric Outboard? Thoughts?

QC, Yes the difference between power into an electric motor and rotary motion is about 1%. Same for turning a generator.

The real loss is in the steam turbines, which drive the generators. That has proven to be impossible to fix. Remember the heat engine efficiency equation. T high - T low / T high. In Kelvin degrees. So if T Low is absolute zero degrees K, the heat engine is 100% efficient. Of course that is hard to do in practice.

 

[kungpaoshizi]

Re: Electric Outboard? Thoughts?

I can't imagine having an electric outboard..I have a hard enough time keeping 2 batteries charged between all the electrics on board and a 40lb thrust trolling motor... heh

 

[southkogs]

Re: Electric Outboard? Thoughts?

...The real loss is in the steam turbines, which drive the generators. That has proven to be impossible to fix. Remember the heat engine efficiency equation. T high - T low / T high. In Kelvin degrees. So if T Low is absolute zero degrees K, the heat engine is 100% efficient. Of course that is hard to do in practice.

... is that African T or European T? :faint2: