electric trains

[rbh]

With the price of fuel being as high as it is, why do the railroads not go to the european style, trolly AC to power their locomotives???

Bulk AC power purchasing has gotta be cheaper than diesel, even with the infrastructure build cost over time.


(just a head scratcher after watching discovery channel?)

 

[guy74]

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One problem with doing that over here is the long distances of track with low traffic volumns on it in the western 2/3s of the country. As I understand it, the is alot of overhead powered passenger trains in the northeastern corridor, but I don't think it is feasible most other places. That is my thought on your question(I worked in the railroad industry from 1996 til 2005).

 

[QC]

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If it penciled, they would . . . Oh, they don't pay highway taxes on diesel. But the distances covered, and the efficiency of diesel, and the number of cars that a typical freight train can lug across the country, I really doubt they could pipe that much AC all over as guy has alluded to.

 

[rbh]

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The way I see it, the hydro power providers turn off the tap come night and buy/distribute from the coal and nuke guys, as they have to continuously keep the fires going.
(11 pm till 0500am low usage time).
There is such an excess of AC power, your KW hour should be cheap!!
If the railroads bought the power at bulk 24 hours a day, its gotta be cheaper than diesel.
Just the infrastructure build.

 

[puddle jumper]

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The way I see it, the hydro power providers turn off the tap come night and buy/distribute from the coal and nuke guys, as they have to continuously keep the fires going.
(11 pm till 0500am low usage time).
There is such an excess of AC power, your KW hour should be cheap!!
If the railroads bought the power at bulk 24 hours a day, its gotta be cheaper than diesel.
Just the infrastructure build.

I know were you are coming from. Up here in BC we have a huge hydro power supply so you would think it would be a no brainer. But most of the hydro made here goes to the states and we cant make it fast enough for how much there using it.

 

[GA_Boater]

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ROI - Return On Investment. Cost to electrify the road and replace locomotives is staggering. Currently bulk rail transport is the cheapest cost per ton. Speaking of excess AC power, when you have a summer like this year with weeks of 100+ days over a vast area of real estate there isn't any to spare because of the other AC.

 

[LippCJ7]

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Is this the kind of BS Canadians come up with when Hockey is on summer break????

 

[woodsyfeller]

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The trains are actually electric powered the diesel just runs the generators that powers the electric motors.

 

[Fishing Dude too]

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Plus the last I heard there are 20% of coal fired plants closing may have rolling brown-black outs accross the country.

 

[rbh]

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The trains are actually electric powered the diesel just runs the generators that powers the electric motors.

Exactly!

I am seeing this as an Either, or situation.
Either there is power supplied by overhead wires in which case you use it.
OR you go with the diesel electric generators.

I "almost" could see this as easy as flipping the switch from one power supply to another (YUP +-).

 

[rbh]

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Lots of reasons but the biggest is the distances involved in the western 2/3 of the country. High voltage transmission lines are horribly inefficent and most people don't grasp that between 25% and 40% of power generation in the US is lost (thermal transfer) due to the transmission lines stretching so far. Of course a power failure due to weather would not be well recieved when the train is pulling a few hundred tons of perishable goods.

I see this as more of a zone thing, not just one line strung out for thousands of miles.
I understand the line loss over distance, and I understand that it may not be viable to go from one end of the route to the other without some break in the transmission lines (multiple suppliers), but these are diesel electric locomotives and when power could not be obtained from the electrical grid they just go back to their self generation of power.

 

[45Auto]

Re: electric trains

High voltage transmission lines are horribly inefficent and most people don't grasp that between 25% and 40% of power generation in the US is lost (thermal transfer) due to the transmission lines stretching so far.

So you think that the people who produce and sell the electricity and the US Energy Information Administration don't correctly grasp the power losses?

From the US Energy Information Administration http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=105&t=3

According to EIA data, national, annual electricity transmission and distribution losses average about 7% of the electricity that is transmitted in the United States.

Transmission and distribution losses in the USA were estimated at 6.6% in 1997 and 6.5% in 2007. In general, losses are estimated from the discrepancy between energy produced (as reported by power plants) and energy sold to end customers; the difference between what is produced and what is consumed constitute transmission and distribution losses.

It all comes down to money. The reason that most rail lines are not electrified in the US is because the infrastructure is privately owned and it's not cost-effective for the owners to make the HUGE investment required. Most European lines are electrified because the rails are publicly owned (just like roads here in the US) which allows the government to spend the huge amounts necessary. I don't know about Canada.


EDIT - Added this from Wikipedia:

The chief disadvantage of electrification is the cost for infrastructure (overhead power lines or electrified third rail, substations, control systems). Public policy in the US currently interferes with electrification?higher property taxes are imposed on privately owned rail facilities if they have electrification facilities. Also, US regulations on diesel locomotives are very weak compared to regulations on automobile emissions or power plant emissions.

In Europe and elsewhere, railway networks are considered part of the national transport infrastructure, just like roads, highways and waterways, and therefore are often financed by the state. Operators of the rolling stock pay fees according to rail use. This makes possible the large investments required for the technically and in the long-term also, economically advantageous electrification. Because railroad infrastructure is privately owned in the US, railroads are unwilling to make the necessary investments for electrification.

 

[Fishing Dude too]

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Another reason could be theft of wire, people try stealing from the relay stations, getting the shock of their life. Their families then sue the power company for their loss. Duh. Now think of size of wires and ungaurded miles of wires.

 

[oops!]

Re: electric trains

in canada the railroad companys own the land under them and the rails and the right of ways.....

same as the states..... small wars were fought over the land that the rr tracks are on.

 

[rbh]

Re: electric trains

in canada the railroad companys own the land under them and the rails and the right of ways.....

same as the states..... small wars were fought over the land that the rr tracks are on.

I may be way off in left field, but I am thinking Canadian Pacific is wholly owned by the gov now, and that after they sold off Canadian national they still hold a minority stock in it??

 

[dwco5051]

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ROI - Return On Investment. Cost to electrify the road and replace locomotives is staggering. Currently bulk rail transport is the cheapest cost per ton.

If I remember correctly shipping bulk goods by barge is a lot cheaper than rail but like trucking we are subsidizing it with U.S.C.O.E. dredging, lock and dam maintenance, etc.

 

[Jeep Man]

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Is this the kind of BS Canadians come up with when Hockey is on summer break????

Hey, wadda ya gonna do, eh!

 

[soggy_feet]

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Electric trains or not, you're still burning coal somewhere to make the juice.

That really gets me about the masses pushing for hybrid/electric cars. Green? Sure, if you leave out the strip mining for the heavy metals used to make the batteries, and the caustic acids in the batteries, and the fact that you'll get less than a decade out of that battery before it needs to be replaced, and that it's a coal power plant making the electricity you use to charge the 'green' car...

IMO, diesel/bio-diesel is the direction we need to go.

 

[puddle jumper]

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Is this the kind of BS Canadians come up with when Hockey is on summer break????

It,s from the dehydration. We need more beer.

 

[LippCJ7]

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14 posts before I get a response! even rbh ignored me! Thank god they start skating this month! Thanks PJ!