Falcon Bonito restoration

[Bondo]

Re: Falcon Bonito restoration

Thanks jmmacky and Woodonglas.

I'm talking to some suppliers in the UK but Polyester has shipping restrictions. Looks like I will have to buy the Polyester here and ship in the Epoxy from the UK.

I guess the deciding factor now, is the bow, whether it's intentional or not. I guess that determines whether I need to use Epoxy or not?

Would it be ok to PM Bond-o, to ask about this?

Thanks again.

Peter

Ayuh,.... I'm watchin',.... 'n I'm agreein' with what yer bein' told,... either resin will work just Fine,...

Epoxy is stronger, but at 'bout twice the cost...

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: Falcon Bonito restoration

You can use Poly on the transom too! It's just that epoxy is stronger and gives you more working time. For a transom as large as yours and with it needing 4 layers of 3/8" plywood to build it, I think it would be better to use epoxy for the build. That's just me. Again either will work. Poly just means you'd have to work a bit faster.

 

[PatriotPhantom]

Re: Falcon Bonito restoration

Ayuh,.... I'm watchin',.... 'n I'm agreein' with what yer bein' told,... either resin will work just Fine,...

Epoxy is stronger, but at 'bout twice the cost...

And out of the darkness............

Thanks Bond-o. I'm going into Palma (capital city) tomorrow, so I'll go and visit a supplyer I know there. Get some prices and see what the next step is.

Am I right that 1708 is for Polyester but not recommended for Epoxy?

I'm thinking that IF Epoxy is double the price but easier to use and stronger, this is the best way for me to go. I noted the point by Rus, that once I have used Epoxy I will have to use Epoxy if I go over any of the work. I'm hoping that once this is done and painted, I won't be touching it again. I was going to cover the repairs and the entire engine bay with this, that I already bought. I guess that being Polyester, I wont be able to use it over Epoxy?

Thanks Woodonglass, I made some more inquiries in the UK, where the boat originated from and from what I'm being told, the transom should probably be flat. This is not from the boat builder but a general idea, because the amount of bow is so small. The transom is 78 inches (198cm) wide and 37 inches (94cm) high, then there is a step outward (fiberglass only), that meets with the deck molding. See photo below.

Thanks to everyone.

Peter

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: Falcon Bonito restoration

If it's flat then use 3/4 in layers of ply to help take the bow out. One thing about epoxy, Gelcoat and Poly has a hard time adhereing to it. Soooo... in any areas where you want to re-apply gelcoat or poly you will have to do some special prep to get it to work and still no guarantees. Interior, below the deck work epoxy is usually fine but exterior above the deck where you might want to re-apply gelcoat, then Poly is the product of choice. Just so you know. You are correct about the 1708 it has a layer of mat stitched to the back of it and mat is not typically used with epoxy. Epoxy only requires the use of fiberglass cloth. Epoxy does not contain Styrene and that chemical is required to break down the fibers in the mat to help create the bond for the poly. Epoxy has the "Binders" built into the mix so mat is not required for strength. That's a real brief explanation but hopefully you get the idea.

 

[PatriotPhantom]

Re: Falcon Bonito restoration

If it's flat then use 3/4 in layers of ply to help take the bow out. One thing about epoxy, Gelcoat and Poly has a hard time adhereing to it. Soooo... in any areas where you want to re-apply gelcoat or poly you will have to do some special prep to get it to work and still no guarantees. Interior, below the deck work epoxy is usually fine but exterior above the deck where you might want to re-apply gelcoat, then Poly is the product of choice. Just so you know. You are correct about the 1708 it has a layer of mat stitched to the back of it and mat is not typically used with epoxy. Epoxy only requires the use of fiberglass cloth. Epoxy does not contain Styrene and that chemical is required to break down the fibers in the mat to help create the bond for the poly. Epoxy has the "Binders" built into the mix so mat is not required for strength. That's a real brief explanation but hopefully you get the idea.

Thanks Woodonglass, yes that does explain a lot.

My internet has been down since my last post, the pleasures of living on an island.

Ok, I have got some prices and considering all the comments and the price difference, it looks like Polyester is the way to go, and go quick, from what you have said. Epoxy at ?485 for 20 Kilos and Polyester at ?170 for 25 Kilos, is a huge difference.

I?m going to check what the Spanish terms mean, as they don?t know what 1708 is. Apparently all their resin comes by ship, from the UK. But the glass comes direct from mainland Spain. I hope they have the equivalent, but if not, any suggestions what I should be looking for?

Also, if I remember right, is there a "Slow" catalyst, for the Polyester? That would give me extra working time.

Peter

 

[GT1000000]

Re: Engines

Re: Engines

My Cuban Spanish and Spain's Spanish are not identical, but close enough...
I'll try to give you the best possible description of their descriptions...

The first 3 items are all epoxy related...
The next 4 items are all polyester resin related...

MAT CSM 300 X 125 A MTS and MAT CSM 450 X 125 A MTS seem to be their equivalent of CSM, I am not sure of the weight numbers they are giving, but a guess is that the numbers are GRAMS of weight...

The TEJIDO DE VIDRIO, I am not sure, from the description, it is a type of fiberglass cloth, which may be just a "roving"

The TEJIDO BIAXIAL 45? seems to be the biaxial cloth equivalent to 1708...again I am just not sure what the numbers represent...

The only catalyst they list for polyester resin is this one...CATALIZADOR PMEC 500GR...the way to make it "slow" is to use less of it or work in cooler temps, or both...
The other ones listed are for epoxy only...

If you can get them to spell out what the "A MTS" is and the actual explanation of the weight numbers {ie, 450 X 125}, even if it is in Spanish, post them up and I will try to interpret them for you...

Also, if you could get them to send you some small samples of the different types of cloths and mats, we might be able to better determine their best uses...

 

[PatriotPhantom]

Re: Engines

Re: Engines

Thanks GT1M,

I?m back in Palma tomorrow and I?ll see if I can get the information you mentioned. And some samples of whatever glass they have.

Thanks again.

Peter

 

[PatriotPhantom]

Re: Engines

Re: Engines

Ok, I got some clarifications. The Tejido de vidrio 300 X 125 Rollos is a weave cloth like 1708 but without the CSM on the back (something like the image below). The numbers mean 300 is grm weight of cloth and the 125 is cm with of the cloth. The "Rollo" means it is sold by weight. The Tejido biaxial 45? is normal biaxial and the numbers are the same as above. The A MTR means sold by the meter.

So, am I right to think that I will need to use the weave 520grm and the CSM 450grm, in alternate layers?

 

[GT1000000]

Re: Falcon Bonito restoration

OK, if all they have are the two cloths, CSM and Biaxial...you don't really need the heavier CSM, you should be fine with the 300 gram...by my calculations, that is slightly over a 10-11 ounce weight CSM, that seems pretty heavy, but if that's the lightest they have, oh well...we ordinarily only use a 1.5 ounce weight CSM...Keep in mind that the CSM of this weight is going to drink resin like nobody's business...the main advantage that I see is that your thickness build will happen 4-5 times faster...I can't verify if the strength goes up in direct relation, but I would imagine that it does to a certain extent.

The Biaxial, 45? Cloth at 450 Grams would be my personal choice, which again, by my calculations is approximately a 17 ounce weight...

I am still slightly confused...did you say the Biaxial is the same as the one we have here? With or without the CSM on the backside?

The 520 Gram cloth will work just fine, but it will drink a bunch more resin to wet it out...
If the CSM plus the Biaxial come out to those actual weights, you might be able to do one layer of each and be done, instead of repeating the layering...especially if you use the heavier 520 Gram cloth...

Remember to check and verify by using the US Composites website as a reference...Fiberglass...
They have pretty good descriptions and pictures of the different products...

 

[PatriotPhantom]

Re: Falcon Bonito restoration

Thanks again. I think we might be losing something in the translation of weights. I need to find out some more.

 

[jmmacky]

Re: Falcon Bonito restoration

I used a 45 degree biaxial combi matt in my boat build. It is basically a woven heavy cloth with the csm stitched at 45 degrees to the cloth on the back. It was the closest product to 1708 that I could find in the UK at the time. However, I did see a build by another UK user more recently where they had found a 1708 product so it is available now if you search. Having said that I really liked the combi matt I used as I found it easy to work with and it seems really strong.

I bought most of my glassing stuff from Buy fiberglass and composites supplies online UK - East Coast Fibreglass Supplies but their prices aren't the cheapest. Hope this helps.