Get rid of my 470??

[wappycat696]

Hello,
I just got a 1979 Starcraft Islander project boat. The inside is toast and I'll be gutting it this spring. It has a 470 in it that the previous owner "thinks" it has a rod knocking in it. I didn't try starting it or anything. I just tarped the boat until warm weather. I've heard nothing but really bad, bad remarks about the 470. I've read that there is a couple of things that need changed like the heat exchanger, generator, etc. So I take it that it would be a dumb thing to spend time rebuilding it with the upgrades and putting it back in service.
I'm not a rich man and my question is: would it actually be cheaper to purchase an I6 (and I'm assuming I'll have to change out the outdrive and everything else too), than to rebuild what I have (the current outdrive is reported to be in good shape). Thanks for your comments. Don't be too hard on me.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Get rid of my 470??

and my question is: would it actually be cheaper to purchase an I6 (and I'm assuming I'll have to change out the outdrive and everything else too),

Ayuh,.... If you can find a Fully Dressed I6, as in, Complete, flywheel cover, to pulleys,...
It'll nearly drop in, 'n yer drive can still be used....
Of course, the I6 is also now obsolete....

The 4.3L V6 is also a reasonably easy swap, if ya get 1 Fully Dressed....
You'd just need the right Y-pipe, 'n right flywheel cover to marry it to yer drive...

Fyi,... Buyin any Block, 'n piecemeal dressin' it will cost a major Fortune...

 

[wappycat696]

Re: Get rid of my 470??

So....generally speaking, would it be cheaper just to rebuild the 470. And how bad, really, would it be to keep the 470. I'm not looking for the biggest and best. I just want a reliable cruising engine. Thanks

 

[wappycat696]

Re: Get rid of my 470??

I really appreciate the comments guys. Not to take up too much of your time but what would be the MO of a 470? From day to day, what would my frustrations be. I would just like to have a clear picture as to what its diseases are. Thanks

 

[alexr254]

Re: Get rid of my 470??

You hear alot of BAD remarks on the 470 because alot of people own them and alot of them are neglected and go bad.

Overall the 470's are a strong engine which if maintained properly like anything else will last for the long haul. If you got a broken down one... Some of the parts are hard to find. But mostly all are on Ebay or Iboats.

With no previous engine experience i just rebuild 2 of the "newer model" 470's. Had the blocks bored, heads reworked, cranks polished, etc... Replaced all removable parts like lifters, bearings, push rods, gaskets, seals, etc... Added electronic ignition and the Alt conversion kit... Put it all together and 'wala' 2 nicely working basically new "POWERFUL" 470's. (there were complications of course)

The main concern for 470's is the Cam Seals. They eventually go bad. And that seal is what separates oil from coolant. What i did to combat this is i used the speedi sleeves on the cam where the seals go. This way it wont degrade the cam shaft and the seals should be ok for much longer.

Another thing people dont like about the 470 is the fact that it has a alum block with a cast iron head. A bad overheat will cause a blown head gasket. A overheat can be caused from a clogged exhaust to a bad heat exchanger and more.

Keep in mind that there is no magic engine, whatever you decide on will have its problems and will need to be maintained for it not to fail.

 

[ezmobee]

Re: Get rid of my 470??

I'd look for a donor hull with a complete 3.0 or 4.3 driveline.

 

[alexr254]

Re: Get rid of my 470??

Bubba, i need to disagree with you. I would not junk it simply for that blown seal. I would repair it in a matter of 2 hours. Only money spent would be on the speedi sleeve's and new seals and the front gaskets. Total of around $75 in parts.

 

[alexr254]

Re: Get rid of my 470??

I agree, not a good investment, its old. If your doing this to resell, dont bother spending a ton of cash on an old engine...

But i wasnt thinking at that angle, i was thinking simply having a good working engine like the OP wants i guess. If everything else was in good working order and simply needed the cam seal job done, i would not spend the cash on another engine.

Its a tough debate on what to do... Of course if you have the money buy a new engine and get it installed.. if your not loaded, make what you got work the best you can and spend as little as possible. Thats what i would do...

 

[Bondo]

Re: Get rid of my 470??

On the plus side the OP wanted opinions, now he has two.

Ayuh,.....

 

[stonyloam]

Re: Get rid of my 470??

And then you have a 30 year old engine thats been out of production since forever, hard if not impossible to get some parts for, and almost no value at all in the used boat market. Just not my idea of a good investment, sorry.

But fortunately for you and us, it does have a lot of value if you part it out rather than "junk" it, but that is what I assume you were going to do anyway.

 

[stonyloam]

Re: Get rid of my 470??

Hello,
It has a 470 in it that the previous owner "thinks" it has a rod knocking in it. I didn't try starting it or anything.

So you really don't know what you have. One thing you do have is time. Here is a link to your service manual for this engine: http://www.4shared.com/document/M35B2RL4/Service_Manual_03.html Look it over. See if you can get the engine freed up, and in the spring see if you can get it to run on muffs. Then do all of the diagnostics, compression check, cooling system check to see just what you have. If you decide not to rebuild, you should be able to part it out for several hundred dollars. Look on e-bay to get some idea of value. If you decide on a 4.3. you will be able to use the current outdrive, just remember if you are getting a complete engine out of a junk boat that engine might not have been properly winterized, so be cautious of a cracked block. If you are up to doing a rebuild the 470 should give you many years of reliable service IMHO. Good luck!

 

[wappycat696]

Re: Get rid of my 470??

So you really don't know what you have. One thing you do have is time. Here is a link to your service manual for this engine: http://www.4shared.com/document/M35B2RL4/Service_Manual_03.html Look it over. See if you can get the engine freed up, and in the spring see if you can get it to run on muffs. Then do all of the diagnostics, compression check, cooling system check to see just what you have. If you decide not to rebuild, you should be able to part it out for several hundred dollars. Look on e-bay to get some idea of value. If you decide on a 4.3. you will be able to use the current outdrive, just remember if you are getting a complete engine out of a junk boat that engine might not have been properly winterized, so be cautious of a cracked block. If you are up to doing a rebuild the 470 should give you many years of reliable service IMHO. Good luck!

To my knowledge, the engine isn't locked up. What the guy told me is that a rod is knocking. It still ran. When I got it home, the weather had turned nasty. So I decided to leave everything alone until spring. I have a tiny glimmer of hope that it's not a rod and it's one of the more simpler things that make a knocking sound. But it doesn't make that much difference. It will give me a good reason to tear it apart and rebuild it. I did check the oil and anti-freeze. Everything looked the way it should. I do know that the oil and water could be separated after sitting for a while. But the previous owner didn't mention any other problems with it. So I'm chomping at the bit to get started on it to see what's shakin under that tarp. I'm sure I'm in for some surprises.

 

[jasoutside]

Re: Get rid of my 470??

I'd look for a donor hull with a complete 3.0 or 4.3 driveline.

Yup, all day long

 

[wappycat696]

Re: Get rid of my 470??

OK, I mean no disrespect to anyone. I truly value ALL of what you guys have to say. No question as to who is the most knowledgeable. I am the kind of person who wants to understand every aspect of an issue. So let's say I don't rebuild the 470 which would cost me approx. $1300 - $1500. Instead I buy a donor boat that has a 4.3. The donor boat is a donor boat because it's toasted or wrecked. So the donor boat costs maybe $800 - $1200? Then even though the engine checks out ok, it doesn't really mean everything inside the engine is in great shape. So the only way that I can feel confident in going out on the water with my family is to tear down the 4.3 and do a rebuild which will probably run me $2000? Just guessing but I'm thinking by the time I get done with the swap out, I would be into it for maybe $5000 total. Doesn't it make sense to completely rebuild the 470 with all the upgrades and have a reliable engine than to move into the big money project and have a reliable engine? And I'm sincerely asking. Not being a smart mouth. Thanks

 

[alexr254]

Re: Get rid of my 470??

I dont think anyone here will decide this one for you...

Prices are just estimates, and anything can have complications.. And most likely will. Which always requires more $$$.

Whichever way you look at it your getting yourself pulled into something which is all for fun and no profit. And expect to pay more then what you expect. (if that makes sense)

Just keep it in your mind, if you will rebuild the 470 you are not doing it to re-sell ever.
People dont like to buy complete 470's for the exact reason your original post stated.. Alot more people say they are BAD then good. And Merc is not making parts for them anymore, and does not support this engine.

The only reason i rebuilt mine was because its a 4cyl and the engines came with the boat. I did not want to go through the hassle of replacing them completely. I instead went through the hassle of rebuilding them. I am happy with my choice and stand by my decision. Now if anything does go wrong i have a clue as to what it is, since afterall, i did put them together...

 

[alexr254]

When someone says knocking I automatically assume a rebuild is in order.

You could have a bent rod or bad lifter. Bad bearings and crankshaft. Lots of stuff that requires a rebuild.

Knocking is not good and is usually not a simple fix.

 

[ezmobee]

Re: Get rid of my 470??

I buy a donor boat that has a 4.3. The donor boat is a donor boat because it's toasted or wrecked. So the donor boat costs maybe $800 - $1200? Then even though the engine checks out ok, it doesn't really mean everything inside the engine is in great shape. So the only way that I can feel confident in going out on the water with my family is to tear down the 4.3 and do a rebuild which will probably run me $2000?

While not wrong, I think that's being a little too pessimistic against the donor boat route. An ideal donor boat is one that is out of service because it's ROTTED not because of some mechanical failure. The one jasoutside got even had some recent preventative maintenance done on it. There are projects boats available that have trashed interiors and good drivelines, might just take a little more looking.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Get rid of my 470??

While not wrong, I think that's being a little too pessimistic against the donor boat route. An ideal donor boat is one that is out of service because it's ROTTED not because of some mechanical failure. The one jasoutside got even had some recent preventative maintenance done on it. There are projects boats available that have trashed interiors and good drivelines, might just take a little more looking.

Ayuh,... I think before I dumped $1,500.00 Plus into a 470,...

I'd turn my boat into somebody else's donor barge....

But that's Me...

 

[jasoutside]

Re: Get rid of my 470??

Even in a worst case scenario (having to totally rebuild a new (used) 4.3/3.0) you are waaay better off. At the end of the the rebuild process would you rather have a good current driveline that has support, or, an obsolete one with major quirks and NLA parts?

But that's worst case. The hope would be you could conduct due diligence with a potential donor and find yourself a good one that may only need general maintenance, eh

 

[Alwhite00]

Re: Get rid of my 470??

To the OP - You seem to be attached to the 470 so go ahead & rebuild it. Myself I would look for a 4.3 & stick in it if for nothing more than re-sale value. You might say that you are never going to sell the boat but most people eventually want to go a little bigger/faster/newer or whatever but if you stick with the 470 it will be hard to get ANY of your money back out of hte re-build.

LK