HIN wrong on title

[crackedglass]

I picked up a 16' aluminum boat today, it was given to me by someone who had it given to them. The title is from PA, but the boat has been down in MD for 10 years or more being used unregistered on a farm pond. I'd like to register it here again but I noticed that one digit of the HIN is wrong on the title, the title reads 646 where it should read G4G in the middle of the number. The boat still has it's PA registration numbers on it, those match the last registration card, which was issued in 1985. PA didn't title boats back then, so the registration card is all that's used to reassign ownership. My question is do I try to get the title fixed or forget it and just take the old registration and the bill of sale and register it as is? If I do, the numbers on the hull won't match my registration. Unless you look really close, you could mistake the Gs for 6s but they're definitely Gs and not a 6s, and the manufacture varified the number and year for me as well. The problem is that I never knew the original owner, nor did the last owner, the signed registration card has been passed down hand to hand with the boat for 24 or years now though several owners who never registered it. I can't go back to the original owner, he may even be dead by now, who knows, a web search turns up nothing.

What should I do with this thing?

Forget I noticed it and just go register it and use it? (Any idiot can tell it's a mistype).

Rip off the numbers or scrub the wrong digits so it's not readable on the hull plate? Remove the hull plate all together? I know if I fill in the registration forms with the correct numbers and letters as they appear on the boat they it will throw up a red flag and they won't register it. It's too nice to just forget about, and I'm sure no one's registered it all these years for this reason. There's got to be a way to fix this without jumping through hoops. It's not like the number is totally different, its obvious that someone looked too quickly and mistook the G's for 6's. The time to have fixed it would have been back then but now, 24 or more years later I'm sure it's going to be a nightmare.

Any half intelligent person can see that the Gs were mistaken for number 6s, theres several 6's and G's in the HIN, they are very hard to tell apart. The HIN is hand stamped on a plate which is riveted to the hull. The numbers are all crooked and of different stamping depths too. But I've seen this on these before. It looks like they use individual stamps for each letter, and the set isn't completely all of the same size or brand or the stamper had a heavier hand on some numbers but not on all.

I am afraid of all the red tape trying to get this fixed will create.

 

[arks]

Re: HIN wrong on title

I don't think it'll be a huge deal to correct. I had a similar situation with my 14' Jon boat trailer from NY. Take a good picture of the HIN plate, then take it and all the paperwork to your notary. They'll know what to do. It might involve a "re-assignment" of the title. It probably wouldn't hurt to take the boat with you, too. That way they can confirm the HIN with their own eyes.

 

[5150abf]

Re: HIN wrong on title

I would let the DMV catch it, I can't imagine anyone would ever even look at it on the actual boat.

I have been on the water for years and years and never had anyone check the hull number, only that it is registered and the tag is current.

You DO NOT want to alter the serial number plate at all, if it is ever checked that will cause you all kinds of greif, leave everything as it is and just forget you ever found the mistake.

I would get a bill of sale from the guy you got it from with the correct hull number on it, give him a dollar for the boat just to make it official then if there ever is a problem you have someone to back you up

 

[reelfishin]

Re: HIN wrong on title

It's fairly common practice here for the Coast Guard to check your paperwork against your boat. Both for max weight compliance and hull numbers. They board your boat several times a year for 'safety checks', especially in the bay.
They started doing it more often since 9/11.
They seam to check older boats more often. I've always had old boats, I've been hassled about not having a Coast Guard plate before, on boats which were far too old to have ever had one.
I have also had boats on which the CG plate numbers didn't match the HIN from the factory, most likely a case where someone just didn't get a number or two right. The procedure here would be the same as if you didn't have a title at all, you would have to haul it to the marine police station headquarters, they then do an investigation to verify its not stolen and then issue you a new title. This takes months to complete and I am told that there is a substantial fee for this now. It used to be free with only a title fee in the end.
I'm not sure about PA.
I've got a similar situation with a boat from PA, it was bought for parts but if I decided to fix it, the registration that came with it has two wrong digits, NJ won't fix it, they say the seller much get it fixed, and to transfer it to NJ I need a signed, notarized bill of sale. I have no idea who the original owner was, the boat came from Erie, PA, over 800 miles away from me here, and it was last registered in PA back in 1982. Its also an aluminum hull. The DMV here will do nothing, they want no parts of it, the marine police look at is as an invalid registration and insist that it must be fixed by PA by the original owner who had that registration. That would mean hunting down the last owner, or next of kin, talking a total stranger into jumping through hoops to take ownership of the boat and fix the title, it would mean towing the boat back to PA for an inspection, then getting that person to sign over the corrected registration to me. The chances of that happening are slim.
I would think that the minute they type in the mistyped HIN, the computer would come up as it being an invalid number, I've had problems before with older boats which had shorter hull numbers than the computer would recognize, the computer would kick the application if the hull number was less than 17 digits, an intelligent person just adds a string of zeros to the front end of the number to satisfy the computer but most of the time they insist that you copied the numbers wrong. The problem is that none of them have any idea about boats or that older boats didn't follow modern HIN format.

 

[pine island fred]

Re: HIN wrong on title

Dont bring it to anyones attention, just register it with the paperwork you have. I know what I am talking about. Had a ford tempo in PA. Numbers were mixed up with its twin that wound up in N.J. where a used car dealer caught it. What a hassel, no one wants to help. People were about as helpful and friendly, including the state police who have to get involved, as the state employees working in the licquor stores.
Must add that at that time, 90s, there was a form that you could fill out if only 1 or 2 nbrs. were off, might have been simple. My nbrs. were way off, considered letting the thing disappear in CAMDEN but the daughter totaled the thing in the meantime. Since then I work around the system if I have to. BTY, my boat nbrs. are bogus. FRED

 

[pine island fred]

Re: HIN wrong on title

One more comment, you said any half intelligent person can tell its a typo. Dont count on people seeing it your way. Unfortunately a lot of paperwork people are not allowed to or cant think for themselves. Might be an ego thing of having authority while typing in the computer system. FRED

 

[kg5388]

Re: HIN wrong on title

register like it is then call them later and tell them they made a mistake and blame them and tell them they need to correct their mistake

 

[cbavier]

Re: HIN wrong on title

I think it depends on a couple things as to what to do. Where your going to use the boat and if you want to risk getting caught with it wrong.

If your going to use the boat only on inland lakes register it as it is or go to one of the SEC of State offices and try to explain and correct the mistake. Take the boat with you.

If that Sec of State will not correct the registration and register the boat. Go to another Sec of State office and register it as is.

Whatever you do. Take the last registration and if you can get a bill of sale
as suggested above for $1.00 take that too.

Just my two cents. I always like to be legal when possible. helps me sleep better.

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: HIN wrong on title

I would find an independant title clerk who has long term relationships at your local DMV. They are often good at sorting this stuff out.

I think you are OK, because its obvious that a simple mistake was made. If the actual HIN and what is on the title were completely different, it would be obvious that you have a bogus title. In that case, I don't think you would have much chance of getting the boat properly titled and registered.

 

[reelfishin]

Re: HIN wrong on title

Jersey DMV is state run, no title clerks or other involved.
PA is uses notaries to handle MV registrations. I'm not very familiar with PA procedures these days, It's been a while since I lived there.
I think I'd be all for just registering it with the number on the old reg from PA, then if complain later. The boat would most likely die with me, and if I've looked long and hard to find one and if it will only see a few local ponds or the river, no one will every likely check.
Most boats I've looked at here didn't have any numbers, they were removed or never had them.

 

[BigB9000]

Re: HIN wrong on title

I would let the DMV catch it, I can't imagine anyone would ever even look at it on the actual boat.

I have been on the water for years and years and never had anyone check the hull number, only that it is registered and the tag is current.

You DO NOT want to alter the serial number plate at all, if it is ever checked that will cause you all kinds of greif, leave everything as it is and just forget you ever found the mistake.

I would get a bill of sale from the guy you got it from with the correct hull number on it, give him a dollar for the boat just to make it official then if there ever is a problem you have someone to back you up

+1

After you get it titled and its in your name, if you really care enough, go to the DMV and show them the mistake.

It'll be easier to fix once its yours

 

[H8tank]

Re: HIN wrong on title

When I got my last boat reg'd, I noticed they changed an I to a 1, I asked about it, and they said they treat all I as 1's, and all 0 as O, and I think they even mention 6's as G's.

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: HIN wrong on title

Crackedglass: I'm a little confused. Do you live in Pa and want to register the boat there? If so, do you have a good relationship with any one of the private businesses licensed to title autos, like Wiggins Auto Tags here near West Chester? If so go to them and since the boat was never titled, have it titled with the correct HIN.

However, There have been hulls that I have changed numbers on just for convenience. Sometimes it just makes sense to go along with what's written on the papers. If you change the numbers of the HIN, remove the capacity plate (if it also shows the numbers) register the boat with no capacity plate and have the state (fish and game) issue one for you--it only costs 5 bucks or so, can be done at the license place, and one form to fill out. Pa seems to lowball capacity though.

 

[crackedglass]

Re: HIN wrong on title

Crackedglass: I'm a little confused. Do you live in Pa and want to register the boat there? If so, do you have a good relationship with any one of the private businesses licensed to title autos, like Wiggins Auto Tags here near West Chester? If so go to them and since the boat was never titled, have it titled with the correct HIN.

However, There have been hulls that I have changed numbers on just for convenience. Sometimes it just makes sense to go along with what's written on the papers. If you change the numbers of the HIN, remove the capacity plate (if it also shows the numbers) register the boat with no capacity plate and have the state (fish and game) issue one for you--it only costs 5 bucks or so, can be done at the license place, and one form to fill out. Pa seems to lowball capacity though.

You may have just pointed out part of the problem, I checked the Capacity plate for a HIN and it indeed has one, that number matches the old registration but is badly worn and faded, but it don't match the riveted plate on the transom. I'd venture to guess thats were the problem began. Neither set of numbers look like they were ever tampered with but the CG plate is printed or typed where the specs and numbers are. The rest is a screen printed yellow on foil type decal. The CG plate is applied across a seam in the hull, it's split right across the center and has about a 1/2 strip missing where it never adhered there.

The hull ID plate is powder coated along with the rest of the hull and installed with the same type rivets that are all over the hull elsewhere.

I called one notary up here and explained the situation, and was told that the best thing to do is just to register it with the old registration number, other wise I need to explain where the hull came from since the state will see that as a different hull than the one depicted on the registration.
I'd have to treat it as a found boat in other words and have to show proof of ownership somehow. All I have is a signed registration card from the last owner with the wrong HIN number on it.

Its not a title that I'm after, I just want to register it and not be hassled down the road for the paperwork not matching the boat.

 

[mthieme]

Re: HIN wrong on title

Forget I noticed it and just go register it and use it? (Any idiot can tell it's a mistype).

This is my vote.
Trying to clean up a beaureaucratic typo is like holding back the tide.

 

[Ike-110722]

Re: HIN wrong on title

Call this person and get it straightened out now.

Boating Law Administrator
Col George F Johnson IV
Tawes State Office Bldg 3
580 Taylor Ave
Annapolis, MD 21401

Phone: 410.260.8881


Yes it will be a bureaucratic hassle. But it will be a lot bigger hassle if some watercop or the CG boards you and sees the discrepancy. Your boat will end up being impounded, and you treated like a criminal until it gets sorted out.

DO NOT mess with the HIN numbers on the boat. That will get you in real hot water and is not only a state offense, it is a Federal Offense.

If you need assistance with this call **** Blackman at the USCG Office of Boating Safety at 202-372-1073 He should be back from the Miami Boat Show on Feb 17. If he is not, ask for Po Chang. Actually anyone there can help.

Actually this sort of thing happens a lot, I used to deal with it all the time. But it is always best to get it straightened out rather than ignoring it and then trying to explain that to some cop who thinks he's found a stolen boat.

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: HIN wrong on title

Jersey DMV is state run, no title clerks or other involved.

That is not necessarily true. I just obtained a duplicate title for an old pickup truck that I had, via a title clerk here in Louisiana. While the reason that I had to do this is kind of a long story, suffice it to say that I had to get the duplicate Jersey title, so I could get the vehicle titled here in Louisiana.

BTW, our DMVs in Louisiana are state run also and there are title clerks all over the place here. I use them for my auto registrations, plates, etc. Boat registrations in Louisiana are done by another state agency (Dept. of Wildlife & Fisheries), but I use a title clerk to handle my boats, as well.

 

[reelfishin]

Re: HIN wrong on title

NJ used to have private contracted State DMV offices, after the last round of state budget cuts, they shut down a handful of offices, and the rest became full state run operations. The only way to get a NJ title is through the DMV here. The last round of cuts made for some really disgruntled employees. There are fewer employees per office and more work and larger crowds. They had it fixed and they screwed it up again.
Most of the DMV employees know only what they read, they most likely know nothing about boats, or any other vehicle for that matter. Most of our DMV (I should say MVS now that they changed it), are like a cattle stampede, everyone in a hurry, the employees stressed to the limit and lines out the door. Now they want to close even more offices and make everyone drive an hour to the nearest office. They let go all of the best people, and kept only the bilingual and probably lowest paid staff. The result has been a real mess.
I wish we did deal with Fish and Game for boat registration, it would keep me from having to deal with the insane MVS offices here.

I lived in PA years ago, but never transfered my boat to PA at the time. I drove a company car so I never had to deal with their title and registration system. I do know that auto inspection was totally independent back then, you had to pay to get your car inspected which was an open invitation for the shop doing the inspection to make a quick buck on unneeded repairs.
I was lucky and had a car that was maintained by the company.

What would one do if you bought a boat from PA that had no current registration if it was going to a state that requires a title or the old registration like NJ? Would a signed, dated, and notarized bill of sale work then?

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: HIN wrong on title

While some states do use private contractors, those that don't will still work with title clerks. That's how I was able to get the Jersey title for my truck through a Louisiana title clerk - she was actually dealing directly with the NJ DMV in Trenton.

Getting paperwork when the old paperwork is not in order depends on where you are. Here in Lousiana, it has become difficult. We used to be able to just declare the boat as "home made," but the LADWLF won't go for that any more. To register a home made boat here now, you have to provide copies of receipts for the materials used to build it. In Mississippi, however, the rules are very lax - I have known a couple of people who have used a family member's address there to register a boat with bad paperwork. What they then do is to wait a little while and eventually use the Mississippi registration to get a Louisiana registration.

BTW, you used to be able to go the "home made" route in Jersey too. I once did it with a boat trailer that was built in 1958. I bought it in 1988 and it had never been titled or registered at all. The trailer was owned by a series of people who all had houses on Lake Hopatcong. Every one of them had simply used the trailer to launch their boats in the spring, and retrieve them for storage at the house over the winter. When I went to the DMV to try to title and register it, I was told that I would have to bring every single person who had ever owned it to the DMV, so that each could obtain paperwork in turn. Obviously that was a completely ridiculous demand, so I called Trenton and talked to a manager there - he laughed and said, "sounds to me like you have a home made trailer, don't you think?" I laughed too, and went right back to the same DMV to register the trailer that way. I had my paperwork in about an hour!

 

[reelfishin]

Re: HIN wrong on title

Most all trailers here are home made, since that is the only way to register any trailer which has had a lapse in registration and has been sold in the mean time.
They are looking for receipts now though but I keep a stack of receipts from the local steel mill handy, I just pull a few out and make copies when needed.
You can do a home made boat but it requires it be up to current regulations, have a state marine police inspection, you provide detailed receipts and they inspect and determine that it is indeed home made.

You can take the boat to the marine police and have them check the HIN and if all comes up clean, they issue you a paper to get a title at the DMV, where then the DMV finds fault with the Marine police paperwork and they bounce you back and forth for a year.
If there is no hull number, they issue one based on your educated guess of the year. If there is a HIN present, they require you jump through hoops to try and find the old owner or correct owner and to prove there is no remaining claimants on that vessel. This means three rounds of legal notices in the paper, three rounds of certified letters to the last legal owner, dead or alive. The system does open the boat to false claims of ownership though, anyone can make claim to it if the original owner is dead. What I usually do is come prepared with a bill for several months storage fees at my shop just in case. But the expense of all the newspaper and certified letters and all the leg work is a real pain and often for nothing.
The part that gets me is that the notarized bill of sale from the former owner means nothing since they don't consider him the rightful owner here in NJ without a title, but they require it anyway. You all but have to prove on your part that the guy you bought it from was the rightful owner and there are no others who claim ownership.
Pretty much, if it is indeed homemade, and you have the receipts to prove it, and the boat passes current standards, it will get a title but an existing boat will need to get a new HIN issued by the state DMV.
If there is no number, you need nothing other than a notarized letter saying that its either yours or where you bought it, and an Marine police inspection which turns up no hull number. They then issue you a state issued HIN and a title.